4 ms·

You have the ability to vote Teresa May out of office and change UK laws through your member of parliament. The European Commission, the European Council, and t

by pwned1 8y ago

You have the ability to vote Teresa May out of office and change UK laws through your member of parliament. The European Commission, the European Council, and the Council of the European Union are entirely undemocratic, and the European Parliament is democratic only in name. There's no serious argument that the EU is in any way responsive to voters.

bambataa 8y ago
I’ve never understood the argument that the Councils are undemocratic. They are made up of leaders elected by each state. Do you also think that the UK Cabinet is entirely undemocratic and that individual ministers should be elected to each role?
dpwm 8y ago
> the European Parliament is democratic only in name It was representatives (MEPs) today that chose to vote in favour of this directive. They could have voted differently and rejected the proposal outright. Can you elaborate on how this is a "democratic only in name" institution?
- pwned1 8y ago
  It's democratic on paper, sure. But in reality, does anyone know who their MEP is? Five year terms? Total lack of responsiveness (according to comments on here today), lack of real democratic accountability. Sure, it looks democratic, but in reality it's not. Particularly when the EU Parliament doesn't even initiate legislation, the un-elected European Commission does.
  - dpwm 8y ago
    The UK government is democratic on paper, sure. But in reality, does anyone know who their MP is? [0] Five year terms? [1] Total lack of responsiveness [2] lack of real democratic accountability [3] Sure, it looks democratic, but in reality it's not.[4] Particularly when the UK parliament doesn't even initiate (propose) legislation: ministers are appointed by the government, and are not elected to their position. And civil servants write the legislation before it goes to parliament. [0] In 2013, 3/4 people could not name their MP. See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22555659 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22555659 [1] Five years unless there is a supermajority or the loss of a no confidence vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_201... [2] Numerous examples of this: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-responsive-your-mp-responding-8198107; https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-responsive-your-mp... https://www.writetothem.com/stats/2015/mps https://www.writetothem.com/stats/2015/mps [3] There is an ability to recall MPs, but they need to have breached the parliamentary code bad enough to be suspended from sitting for a number of days or engaged in criminal behaviour and been duly sentenced. The current UK government is actively trying to strip people of voting rights who do not have the money for suitable photo ID (minimum £34) [4] The UK's first-past-the-post electoral system means that the majority of votes do not matter.
    - headmelted 8y ago
      You forgot the House of Lords.
- sampo 8y ago
  EU parliament used to be a place to dump 2nd rate politicians who: (1) Were appreciated by their party, but not so much by the voters. The real politics happened in the domestic parliament, so the parties would run their 1st rate politicians in the domestic elections. (2) And were personally very interested in the EU, and thus wanted to run. We have been sending 2nd rate but very pro-EU politicians to the EU parliament. So the opinions of the members of the parliament are quite far from the average opinions of the EU populace. We are slowly beginning to realize that the European Parliament actually matters, and we should give some serious thought about who we vote there.
ithkuil 8y ago
If a lot of people across EU is concerned about how democratic is the EU governance, can't we change this without necessary destroying the EU first?
- pwned1 8y ago
  Didn't the people of several EU countries vote against the EU treaty, only to have the rules of the game changed so that it would go into effect anyways?
- sampo 8y ago
  First, people would have to vote an EU-sceptic majority for their domestic parliaments. This would need to happen in a majority of EU countries. Then this majority of EU-sceptic governments could achieve a majority either in the Council or in the Commission, and propose laws to change the EU governance. Then the Parliament would have to accept these laws. I think it would have to be the Council, it's difficult to see the Commission proposing a law that decreases the power of the Commission.

by pwned1 8y ago

bambataa 8y ago

I’ve never understood the argument that the Councils are undemocratic. They are made up of leaders elected by each state. Do you also think that the UK Cabinet is entirely undemocratic and that individual ministers should be elected to each role?

dpwm 8y ago

> the European Parliament is democratic only in name It was representatives (MEPs) today that chose to vote in favour of this directive. They could have voted differently and rejected the proposal outright. Can you elaborate on how this is a "democratic only in name" institution?

pwned1 8y ago
It's democratic on paper, sure. But in reality, does anyone know who their MEP is? Five year terms? Total lack of responsiveness (according to comments on here today), lack of real democratic accountability. Sure, it looks democratic, but in reality it's not. Particularly when the EU Parliament doesn't even initiate legislation, the un-elected European Commission does.
- dpwm 8y ago
  The UK government is democratic on paper, sure. But in reality, does anyone know who their MP is? [0] Five year terms? [1] Total lack of responsiveness [2] lack of real democratic accountability [3] Sure, it looks democratic, but in reality it's not.[4] Particularly when the UK parliament doesn't even initiate (propose) legislation: ministers are appointed by the government, and are not elected to their position. And civil servants write the legislation before it goes to parliament. [0] In 2013, 3/4 people could not name their MP. See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22555659 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22555659 [1] Five years unless there is a supermajority or the loss of a no confidence vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_201... [2] Numerous examples of this: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-responsive-your-mp-responding-8198107; https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-responsive-your-mp... https://www.writetothem.com/stats/2015/mps https://www.writetothem.com/stats/2015/mps [3] There is an ability to recall MPs, but they need to have breached the parliamentary code bad enough to be suspended from sitting for a number of days or engaged in criminal behaviour and been duly sentenced. The current UK government is actively trying to strip people of voting rights who do not have the money for suitable photo ID (minimum £34) [4] The UK's first-past-the-post electoral system means that the majority of votes do not matter.
  - headmelted 8y ago
    You forgot the House of Lords.
sampo 8y ago
EU parliament used to be a place to dump 2nd rate politicians who: (1) Were appreciated by their party, but not so much by the voters. The real politics happened in the domestic parliament, so the parties would run their 1st rate politicians in the domestic elections. (2) And were personally very interested in the EU, and thus wanted to run. We have been sending 2nd rate but very pro-EU politicians to the EU parliament. So the opinions of the members of the parliament are quite far from the average opinions of the EU populace. We are slowly beginning to realize that the European Parliament actually matters, and we should give some serious thought about who we vote there.

ithkuil 8y ago

If a lot of people across EU is concerned about how democratic is the EU governance, can't we change this without necessary destroying the EU first?

pwned1 8y ago
Didn't the people of several EU countries vote against the EU treaty, only to have the rules of the game changed so that it would go into effect anyways?
sampo 8y ago
First, people would have to vote an EU-sceptic majority for their domestic parliaments. This would need to happen in a majority of EU countries. Then this majority of EU-sceptic governments could achieve a majority either in the Council or in the Commission, and propose laws to change the EU governance. Then the Parliament would have to accept these laws. I think it would have to be the Council, it's difficult to see the Commission proposing a law that decreases the power of the Commission.