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Stronglifts (and other beginner LP programs) start the lifter at trivial weights, and by the time you reach weights that have the potential for injury, you have

by cheald 8y ago

Stronglifts (and other beginner LP programs) start the lifter at trivial weights, and by the time you reach weights that have the potential for injury, you have hundreds or even thousands of reps under your belt. The motion is practiced, the form is good, and you know how to move that weight. Squats can be started entirely unweighted. Bench can be started with dumbbells if you can't trivially handle a barbell. The motions are perfectly safe (and in the case of the squat, a fundamentally necessary functional movement) when performed with appropriate weight. Squatting or benching high percentages of your 1RM without knowing what you're doing is a quick ticket to injury, sure. Nobody sane recommends that.

gthtjtkt 8y ago
> The motions are perfectly safe In theory, sure. In reality, not even close. I guarantee there isn't a single person in this thread who could tell me what someone's squat form should look like based on their femur:torso ratio and hip/ankle flexibility. Should they squat high bar or low bar? Wide or narrow stance? Parallel or below parallel? Flat shoes or heel lifts? If you can't easily answer all of those questions, you have no business squatting anything more than the bar. Squats, bench presses and deadlifts are extremely complex, high-risk lifts that serve no purpose for the average, non-competitive weightlifter. There are plenty of lower-risk alternatives that can achieve the same results.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  > Squats, bench presses and deadlifts are extremely complex, high-risk lifts that serve no purpose for the average, non-competitive weightlifter. You've clearly never had to lift a couch or push a car out of a ditch, even just squatted down to pick up something larger than a breadbox. Your body isn't made of glass - it won't explode, and scaring people off these wonderful exercises is doing a disservice to humanity. > Should they squat high bar or low bar? Really whatever is more comfortable. High bar won't get you as much weight due to leverages but some people lack the mobility, or the desire, to low bar. > Wide or narrow stance? Totally based upon the individual anthropometry. If you have long femurs you can squat wider to get ride of some of that potential moment arm but that's going to load your hips to a greater extent. It'll also depending on how your femur hits your hip bone - I have to squat wider just to get my femurs into the right spot to hit parallel. > Parallel or below parallel? If you're competing, aim for just below -you're playing the game and you want 3 white lights with the most weight. If not, then do what your mobility / goals set. Far below is going to cause you to move less wait, but you don't want to be above to keep the knee strain low (note: your knees ain't going to explode, it's just not as nice on em) > Flat shoes or heel lifts? That's an ankle mobility question. If you can do it without, go for it, but many people won't be able to. Stop living in fear of excellent exercises that get you stronger and build character. Progressive overload and months/years of experience will sort most people out before they explode into a pile of gooey chunks putting a bar on their back. edit: put question marks at the end each quote to help delineate between question / response.
  - gthtjtkt 8y ago
    You're wrong on literally every point -- especially bar placement and stance width -- and I don't buy into your false dichotomy about "living in fear". It's a simple matter of risk vs. reward. Squats are complex and high-risk. If you can achieve the same results with simpler, safer exercises, it would be stupid not to.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      I believe you and I differ on what we consider the results of a squat. And I'm impressed that you can dismiss my points so quickly and not even put in the effort to try and enlighten me. Who knows, maybe I'll come around to your line of thinking if you put more than "squats bad, simple exercises better" on the page?
  - GFischer 8y ago
    Your body isn't made of glass - it won't explode Considering my father got a herniated disk from improperly lifting a heavy weight (and he can never lift heavy weights again), and several other people I know experienced severe injury, this is not as good advice as you're making it to be. I agree that weightlifting can be safe, but not riskless, and back injuries are no joke. I'm all for exercise (in theory, in practice I'm a couch potato) but don't dismiss what can be legitimate fears, I'd rather you address them.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      You are right, there is the potential for injury, and some people herniate discs. But more people hurt themselves putting the lawn mower in the truck than in the gym. I took a look and the only statistic I could find for rate of herniated discs in a population (in this case Finland and Italy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2907819/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2907819/) was 1-3% - those aren't all caused by lifting. I've even found a website that was concerned about runners developing herniated disc (https://runnerclick.com/herniated-disc/ https://runnerclick.com/herniated-disc/) Life causes herniated discs, and can happen naturally with age as well. I don't mean to downplay that it can and does happen, and that sucks when it's so bad it's debilitating, but steering clear of the gym won't prevent it. An injury is a fact of life. How many people tear ACL's during soccer practice or skiing? But then people tear their ACL's falling the shower as well. Any activity has built in risks.
- cheald 8y ago
  > I guarantee there isn't a single person in this thread who could tell me what someone's squat form should look like based on their femur:torso ratio and hip/ankle flexibility. Flat lumbar, stance roughly shoulder width, though exact placement is up to the individual's preference and morphology as long as it doesn't induce valgus collapse. Knees tracking over toes to avoid shear forces on the hinge joint, hip crease to below the top of the knee (which is actually parallel, and is much lower than what people think is "parallel"). High/low bar up to personal preference, whichever most easily keeps the weight over center of gravity. Shoes up to preference and ankle mobility as long as they're hard-soled. Start with box squats if the trainee is having trouble with depth or the hinge. Easy peasy. The hip hinge and vertical lift-off trained by the squat is an _exceptionally_ important movement - that's the one that'll keep you from needing assistance to get off the toilet in your advanced age. Want to be able to see what's on the bottom shelf of the fridge without twisting your back and neck into pretzel shapes? Learn to squat. Deadlift training is useful literally any time you'd pick something up off the ground, even if it's of trivial weight. You learn to "lift with your legs, not with your back" by deadlifting. I helped a friend move last weekend and every single box I picked up from the ground was the same motion as my deadlift - and my back didn't ache at all the next day like it used to before I started lifting, oddly enough. Want to pick up your kids and not throw out your back? Learn to deadlift. Squat is a moderately complex lift, but it's no clean and jerk. Deadlift is just learning to stand up properly. Bench press is a _simple_ movement, and teaching it is mostly about teaching upper back tightness. Work in a proper power rack and/or with a spotter and risk is extremely minimal. If you run around trying to max out your bench without a spotter and without any training, sure, you're at risk of getting hurt. Literally nobody in this thread is advocating that. Can you get injured lifting? Sure. People do. People also get injured walking down the street, picking up their kids, opening soda cans, falling down stairs, and a billion other ways. Even more dangerous is being a sedentary blob who slowly rots away due to cardiac disease. Life is dangerous - but the strong individual is going to be a lot more resilient than the average Joe, and you don't get strong without putting your body under stress - and therefore at some risk of injury, But, as Mark Rippetoe likes to say "Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general."
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
- ropable 8y ago
  If I can coach my 68-year-old mother up to a 45 kg squat with barbell (to say nothing of a dozen other clients; she's not even the oldest one), I'm pretty confident that I can coach anyone. I'm quite confident about recommending strength training using free weights as being lower-risk than most other fitness activities, including cycling, running and yoga.

by cheald 8y ago

gthtjtkt 8y ago

> The motions are perfectly safe In theory, sure. In reality, not even close. I guarantee there isn't a single person in this thread who could tell me what someone's squat form should look like based on their femur:torso ratio and hip/ankle flexibility. Should they squat high bar or low bar? Wide or narrow stance? Parallel or below parallel? Flat shoes or heel lifts? If you can't easily answer all of those questions, you have no business squatting anything more than the bar. Squats, bench presses and deadlifts are extremely complex, high-risk lifts that serve no purpose for the average, non-competitive weightlifter. There are plenty of lower-risk alternatives that can achieve the same results.

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
> Squats, bench presses and deadlifts are extremely complex, high-risk lifts that serve no purpose for the average, non-competitive weightlifter. You've clearly never had to lift a couch or push a car out of a ditch, even just squatted down to pick up something larger than a breadbox. Your body isn't made of glass - it won't explode, and scaring people off these wonderful exercises is doing a disservice to humanity. > Should they squat high bar or low bar? Really whatever is more comfortable. High bar won't get you as much weight due to leverages but some people lack the mobility, or the desire, to low bar. > Wide or narrow stance? Totally based upon the individual anthropometry. If you have long femurs you can squat wider to get ride of some of that potential moment arm but that's going to load your hips to a greater extent. It'll also depending on how your femur hits your hip bone - I have to squat wider just to get my femurs into the right spot to hit parallel. > Parallel or below parallel? If you're competing, aim for just below -you're playing the game and you want 3 white lights with the most weight. If not, then do what your mobility / goals set. Far below is going to cause you to move less wait, but you don't want to be above to keep the knee strain low (note: your knees ain't going to explode, it's just not as nice on em) > Flat shoes or heel lifts? That's an ankle mobility question. If you can do it without, go for it, but many people won't be able to. Stop living in fear of excellent exercises that get you stronger and build character. Progressive overload and months/years of experience will sort most people out before they explode into a pile of gooey chunks putting a bar on their back. edit: put question marks at the end each quote to help delineate between question / response.
- gthtjtkt 8y ago
  You're wrong on literally every point -- especially bar placement and stance width -- and I don't buy into your false dichotomy about "living in fear". It's a simple matter of risk vs. reward. Squats are complex and high-risk. If you can achieve the same results with simpler, safer exercises, it would be stupid not to.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    I believe you and I differ on what we consider the results of a squat. And I'm impressed that you can dismiss my points so quickly and not even put in the effort to try and enlighten me. Who knows, maybe I'll come around to your line of thinking if you put more than "squats bad, simple exercises better" on the page?
- GFischer 8y ago
  Your body isn't made of glass - it won't explode Considering my father got a herniated disk from improperly lifting a heavy weight (and he can never lift heavy weights again), and several other people I know experienced severe injury, this is not as good advice as you're making it to be. I agree that weightlifting can be safe, but not riskless, and back injuries are no joke. I'm all for exercise (in theory, in practice I'm a couch potato) but don't dismiss what can be legitimate fears, I'd rather you address them.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    You are right, there is the potential for injury, and some people herniate discs. But more people hurt themselves putting the lawn mower in the truck than in the gym. I took a look and the only statistic I could find for rate of herniated discs in a population (in this case Finland and Italy https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2907819/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2907819/) was 1-3% - those aren't all caused by lifting. I've even found a website that was concerned about runners developing herniated disc (https://runnerclick.com/herniated-disc/ https://runnerclick.com/herniated-disc/) Life causes herniated discs, and can happen naturally with age as well. I don't mean to downplay that it can and does happen, and that sucks when it's so bad it's debilitating, but steering clear of the gym won't prevent it. An injury is a fact of life. How many people tear ACL's during soccer practice or skiing? But then people tear their ACL's falling the shower as well. Any activity has built in risks.
cheald 8y ago
> I guarantee there isn't a single person in this thread who could tell me what someone's squat form should look like based on their femur:torso ratio and hip/ankle flexibility. Flat lumbar, stance roughly shoulder width, though exact placement is up to the individual's preference and morphology as long as it doesn't induce valgus collapse. Knees tracking over toes to avoid shear forces on the hinge joint, hip crease to below the top of the knee (which is actually parallel, and is much lower than what people think is "parallel"). High/low bar up to personal preference, whichever most easily keeps the weight over center of gravity. Shoes up to preference and ankle mobility as long as they're hard-soled. Start with box squats if the trainee is having trouble with depth or the hinge. Easy peasy. The hip hinge and vertical lift-off trained by the squat is an _exceptionally_ important movement - that's the one that'll keep you from needing assistance to get off the toilet in your advanced age. Want to be able to see what's on the bottom shelf of the fridge without twisting your back and neck into pretzel shapes? Learn to squat. Deadlift training is useful literally any time you'd pick something up off the ground, even if it's of trivial weight. You learn to "lift with your legs, not with your back" by deadlifting. I helped a friend move last weekend and every single box I picked up from the ground was the same motion as my deadlift - and my back didn't ache at all the next day like it used to before I started lifting, oddly enough. Want to pick up your kids and not throw out your back? Learn to deadlift. Squat is a moderately complex lift, but it's no clean and jerk. Deadlift is just learning to stand up properly. Bench press is a _simple_ movement, and teaching it is mostly about teaching upper back tightness. Work in a proper power rack and/or with a spotter and risk is extremely minimal. If you run around trying to max out your bench without a spotter and without any training, sure, you're at risk of getting hurt. Literally nobody in this thread is advocating that. Can you get injured lifting? Sure. People do. People also get injured walking down the street, picking up their kids, opening soda cans, falling down stairs, and a billion other ways. Even more dangerous is being a sedentary blob who slowly rots away due to cardiac disease. Life is dangerous - but the strong individual is going to be a lot more resilient than the average Joe, and you don't get strong without putting your body under stress - and therefore at some risk of injury, But, as Mark Rippetoe likes to say "Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general."
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
ropable 8y ago
If I can coach my 68-year-old mother up to a 45 kg squat with barbell (to say nothing of a dozen other clients; she's not even the oldest one), I'm pretty confident that I can coach anyone. I'm quite confident about recommending strength training using free weights as being lower-risk than most other fitness activities, including cycling, running and yoga.