5 ms·

No I'm not. No sane lawyer will even recommend dragging you to court for that because the judge will like fine the suer and find the sued party not guilty. No l

by zaarn 8y ago

No I'm not. No sane lawyer will even recommend dragging you to court for that because the judge will like fine the suer and find the sued party not guilty. No legal department I know would stand behind such a decision, it would be absolutely stupid to drag anyone to court. And most likely the Judge would even have the suing party pay for your expenses and damages incurred by such charges.

dmix 8y ago
They don't need to drag you to court. They fine you using the new EU law, then you refuse to pay and you essentially decide to go to court instead of paying. Even if the company decides to drop the complaint in response either way you have to put a significant amount of effort to get to that point. Merely because you got an email at night. This could happen 100x (or even thousands) for any mid-sized content platform. Most of these things are automated these days. Besides there's no guarantee the parties will automatically act rationally and drop the claims of infringement before threatening court, merely because you claim you were sleeping. And you specifically said a judge won't pursue it, but even that is a maybe.
- zaarn 8y ago
  >Merely because you got an email at night. As mentioned multiple times, if they did this the judge would simply deny the entire fine and suit and they'd have to pay you damages and they'd likely receive a cease&desist order from the court. You must inform parties of violations and allow for adequate time to react to them. Sending an email is already a nono for legal notices as there is no guarantee that the other party even received the mail properly. The only way to properly and legally verifiably send them is to have a write-in mail which the receiver must sign with their signature before receiving. For everything else you might as well send money in an envelope ahead of time. This is not a mere fact this is established procedure. >Besides there's no guarantee the parties will automatically act rationally and drop the claims of infringement before threatening court, merely because you claim you were sleeping. That's not what I've been saying, I've been saying that the infringement still needs to be dealt with but you can obviously not react when you are asleep.
  - svilen_dobrev 8y ago
    Are you talking about this from experience? or just plain (outside-EU) theory? In practice though, most of EU gov-burocracy, incl. courts, prosecutors, statisticians, taxation, food-control, cultural/educational, whoever, esp. in recently-joined former-this-or-that countries, exist mostly in order to make work to each other = i.e. support/keep the whole system. Sadly, that is the reality. And yes, they may charge u of (inexisting) offense (and even without sending u email), if that has any chance of putting oil in the cogwheels for some years. No matter what, the state does not lose.. it just somebody's nerves and taxpayers money wasted, but who cares.
    - zaarn 8y ago
      >Are you talking about this from experience? Yes. >it just somebody's nerves and taxpayers money wasted, but who cares. Courts in the area I live in tend to dislike such behavior a lot.
  - feanaro 8y ago
    How about we just don't allow this law to be enacted in the first place and save ourselves all this trouble?
    - zaarn 8y ago
      I don't say we should have this law but I also say it's less bad than some people make it out to be.
      - JAlexoid 8y ago
        Because those "most" think that the justice system works like on TV... American style. That mostly doesn't operate like that, even in US.
saurik 8y ago
How did they enact such a fine on you without taking you to court? Is the EU crazily different in this regard than the US?
- zaarn 8y ago
  A C&D in Germany is the usual way to resolve disputes, in which case you get a letter + bill + C&D form to sign, you can either comply and sign the C&D and pay the fine or ignore it or just sign the C&D but not pay the bill, in which case the other party can drop it, send more letters or take it to court. If you take it to court and the court finds the complaint invalid then they can (and usually do) force the party that sent the C&D to pay your expenses and damages (ie, lost business due to you having to turn up to court) and usually a restraining order with hefty fines on it. Atleast in germany it is expected that disputes are resolved via C&D and letter correspondence, court is a last resort. To my knowledge, the court system in other countries varies but is not that different...

by zaarn 8y ago

dmix 8y ago

They don't need to drag you to court. They fine you using the new EU law, then you refuse to pay and you essentially decide to go to court instead of paying. Even if the company decides to drop the complaint in response either way you have to put a significant amount of effort to get to that point. Merely because you got an email at night. This could happen 100x (or even thousands) for any mid-sized content platform. Most of these things are automated these days. Besides there's no guarantee the parties will automatically act rationally and drop the claims of infringement before threatening court, merely because you claim you were sleeping. And you specifically said a judge won't pursue it, but even that is a maybe.

zaarn 8y ago
>Merely because you got an email at night. As mentioned multiple times, if they did this the judge would simply deny the entire fine and suit and they'd have to pay you damages and they'd likely receive a cease&desist order from the court. You must inform parties of violations and allow for adequate time to react to them. Sending an email is already a nono for legal notices as there is no guarantee that the other party even received the mail properly. The only way to properly and legally verifiably send them is to have a write-in mail which the receiver must sign with their signature before receiving. For everything else you might as well send money in an envelope ahead of time. This is not a mere fact this is established procedure. >Besides there's no guarantee the parties will automatically act rationally and drop the claims of infringement before threatening court, merely because you claim you were sleeping. That's not what I've been saying, I've been saying that the infringement still needs to be dealt with but you can obviously not react when you are asleep.
- svilen_dobrev 8y ago
  Are you talking about this from experience? or just plain (outside-EU) theory? In practice though, most of EU gov-burocracy, incl. courts, prosecutors, statisticians, taxation, food-control, cultural/educational, whoever, esp. in recently-joined former-this-or-that countries, exist mostly in order to make work to each other = i.e. support/keep the whole system. Sadly, that is the reality. And yes, they may charge u of (inexisting) offense (and even without sending u email), if that has any chance of putting oil in the cogwheels for some years. No matter what, the state does not lose.. it just somebody's nerves and taxpayers money wasted, but who cares.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    >Are you talking about this from experience? Yes. >it just somebody's nerves and taxpayers money wasted, but who cares. Courts in the area I live in tend to dislike such behavior a lot.
- feanaro 8y ago
  How about we just don't allow this law to be enacted in the first place and save ourselves all this trouble?
  - zaarn 8y ago
    I don't say we should have this law but I also say it's less bad than some people make it out to be.
    - JAlexoid 8y ago
      Because those "most" think that the justice system works like on TV... American style. That mostly doesn't operate like that, even in US.

saurik 8y ago

How did they enact such a fine on you without taking you to court? Is the EU crazily different in this regard than the US?

zaarn 8y ago
A C&D in Germany is the usual way to resolve disputes, in which case you get a letter + bill + C&D form to sign, you can either comply and sign the C&D and pay the fine or ignore it or just sign the C&D but not pay the bill, in which case the other party can drop it, send more letters or take it to court. If you take it to court and the court finds the complaint invalid then they can (and usually do) force the party that sent the C&D to pay your expenses and damages (ie, lost business due to you having to turn up to court) and usually a restraining order with hefty fines on it. Atleast in germany it is expected that disputes are resolved via C&D and letter correspondence, court is a last resort. To my knowledge, the court system in other countries varies but is not that different...