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It's still amusing to me that Juul markets itself, raises money, and structures its ranks like a technology startup, but they're really a tobacco company. Every
by beager 8y ago
It's still amusing to me that Juul markets itself, raises money, and structures its ranks like a technology startup, but they're really a tobacco company. Every trope about "growth hacking" from a traditional startup apply here, except that "growth hacking" is most impactful with getting kids to smoke, which I at least assumed was a non-starter for forward-thinking people in the 21st century. Yet, here we are, with a tech startup that likely needs kids to smoke in order to turn their company's financials right-side-up for a successful exit.
- hendzen 8y agoI don't know how anyone who works for JUUL Labs can sleep at night.
- milesdyson_phd 8y agoProbably on piles of money.
- orangecat 8y agoIt's likely that on balance they have saved many lives.
- Balgair 8y agoI've heard that a fair few times before about vapes. That they are 'cleaner' than cigs, and therefore better. But I've not yet seen a peer-reviewed study on them that proves they are less bad than cigs. Is there one? I mean, nicotine is itself not a good thing to be exposed to [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects
- folkrav 8y agohttps://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-independent-expert-e-cigarettes-evidence-review https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-independent...
- Balgair 8y agoNice find! Thanks for the info, the report highlights that vaping is a good vehicle for the stopping nicotine addiction. I'd love to see the followup on flavored vs. non-flavored 'juices'.
- majewsky 8y agoThank you (and favorited for later reference). Here's a question that I don't see answered in this page though: I'm a non-smoker and asthma patient (was diagnosed at age 7, the cause is most likely second-hand smoke from my father), so I always stay clear of smokers and don't let anyone smoke indoors while I'm around. What is a reasonable policy to assume wrt vaping? Do we have any evidence regarding second-hand vaping? I'm not particularly worried about getting addicted that way, but about whether the smoke from an e-cigarette can be harmful to me as an asthma patient (or to others). (And while we're at it: What about Marlboro's Iqos? I stood next to someone using one of these a few weeks ago and the reduction in second-hand smoke and stench is remarkable.)
- DanBC 8y agoVaping is likely to be considerably less harmful than smoking tobacco just because there's so much less burnt stuff going into your lungs. That doesn't mean that vaping is harmfree. But your Wikipedia link tends to say that nicotine (other than being addictive) is mostly not harmful.
- barrow-rider 8y agoNicotine has its own risks as a stimulant, for sure, no different than caffeine in a lot of ways. The biggest issue with smoking is particulate getting into the lungs. Firemen who spend their whole careers breathing non-tobacco smoke have rates of heart disease and cancer similar to regular cigarette smokers. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/firefighters/health.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/firefighters/health.html
- xbmcuser 8y agoVaping is less harmful for your lungs as no tar apart from that most of the other harmful things are the same
- spdionis 8y agoIf you actually read the Wikipedia link you posted you would see that nicotine's effects are minor in adults. Definitely less dangerous than, for example, breathing car waste everyday by living in a city. This of course regards only nicotine, and not all the other chemicals associated with any kind of smoking/vaping.
- beager 8y agoBut "saving lives" doesn't affect their bottom line, and it's at best an incidental and indirect effect of their business model. And furthermore, it could easily be argued that if their growth model encourages nicotine use by children, it will actually create more smokers. If people need to sleep well at night (and many don't care), this reasoning is duplicitous. It'd be better to build a service that helps with smoking/nicotine cessation.
- DSingularity 8y agoWhy not? This not the first startup who’s profit and success comes at the expense of the well being of children and youth.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoYou'd think that in 21st century, no one sane would encourage new people to start smoking.
- spamizbad 8y agoGetting kids smoking is indeed morally reprehensible, but is it any more wrong than countless startups that exploit labor via the so-called 1099 "gig economy", who seem to get a free pass?
- ceejayoz 8y agoIs this a trick question? The answer would be a clear, strong "yes". Inducing a permanent, expensive addiction in minors versus giving grownups a moderately shitty job?
- x2398dh1 8y agoSpectrum fallacy. There is no "scale of morality," which goes from 0 to 10. Each of these can be viewed as wrong from different perspectives. Also, "exploit labor," is a leading term - there is labor exploitation going on, but also free association, while at the same time there are companies that engage in almost outright slavery. It's all over the place and you can't loop them together. If you give a 6 year old poison candy, it's clearly indefensible. If it's a 20 year old, "kid" well, most people will think that's his or her choice.
- e1ven 8y agoI'm sure you mean well, but sort of argument of "Sure X is bad, but what about Y?" isn't particularly helpful. There's always going to be Other things. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't call-out bad things, and try to fix them.
- porphyrogene 8y agoWhat is the significance of that question? If the answer is no should Juul not be banned? This just senseless what-aboutism.
- maxerickson 8y agoI think marketing nicotine is probably worse, but the gig economy does get lots of criticism.
- trevyn 8y agoVaping is not the same as smoking.
- notacoward 8y agoSo what? Do the differences actually matter enough to invalidate the policy issue under discussion?
- trevyn 8y agoYes. Smoking tobacco is pretty clearly terrible for your health. Pure nicotine may not be.
- skybrian 8y agoAs I understand it, they are really a nicotine company. There is neither tobacco nor smoke.
- porphyrogene 8y agoWhere do you think the nicotine comes from?