7 ms·

From what I read on this specific proposal, it's not entirely draconian and has some benefits to the user, since the process also implements transparency requir

by zaarn 8y ago

From what I read on this specific proposal, it's not entirely draconian and has some benefits to the user, since the process also implements transparency requirements and complaint mechanisms. As far as the one-hour-rule goes; if I get an email about taking down content at 01:00AM, then I will naturally be unable to respond for atleast another 5 hours, German courts atleast agree that for such things, it counts when you are first aware of the illegal/infringing content, even if it's weeks after (though you already have an obligation to operate a contact through which you can be quickly reached when you operate in germany atleast, IIRC this proposal will introduce that EU-wide which is good IMO).

dmix 8y ago
> German courts at least agree that for such things This implies that you are going to have to go to court because you got an email at 1am and didn't reply right away...in order to fight off potentially serious fines. Whether it's accurate or not it's still very expensive to prove it's inaccuracy (in time alone, not including financially and stress). This has very serious consequences for small and even medium businesses.
- zaarn 8y ago
  >This implies that you are going to have to go to court No it doesn't, it means that if you get dragged to court because you got the email at 1AM and you were asleep, then you're not guilty of anything. No judge will put up a fine for that.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > if you get dragged to court because you got the email at 1AM and you were asleep, then you're not guilty of anything Getting dragged to court is disruptive, unsettling and expensive.
    - zaarn 8y ago
      And the other party will be found guilty of disrupting your business by having you get into court for complaints without legal grounds.
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        > the other party will be found guilty of disrupting your business This all sounds quite lucrative for the lawyers and notaries. It remains disruptive, unsettling and expensive, not to mention unnecessary, for everyone else. Depending on which of the EU’s 28 member states’ courts one finds oneself dragged into, what you’re proposing could be years of distraction.
        zaarn 8y ago
        >It remains disruptive, unsettling and expensive, not to mention unnecessary Nobody will do this, no sane legal department signs this off or approves of such behavior. Doing otherwise is a great way to incinerate their legal licenses. There are fines for behavior like that. The best outcome for the suing party of such a scenario is a 5 minute court room appearance in which the judge slaps you with a restraining order and closes the case. This has literally never been an escalating problem in european courtrooms to my experience because judges don't like that behavior and laws exist to prevent it.
        smsm42 8y ago
        > There are fines for behavior like that. In theory, there are. In practice, the abuse of both copyright and offensive content notifications is rampant and almost never punished. You have to get to real hardcore crime on massive scale before judicial system starts noticing, and even then it can take years and a lot of effort to get it to do anything. In most cases, such abuse is completely unpunished or gets slap on the wrist.
        zaarn 8y ago
        Because the only system that sites implement is the DMCA, which is largely compatible with Notice&Takedown in the EU but N&T has much softer requirements and Art13 now requires human review and a founded response from the copyright holder.
  - dmix 8y ago
    > No it doesn't > No judge will put up a fine for that. You're contradicting yourself...you have to go to court to get charges dropped by a judge.
    - zaarn 8y ago
      No I'm not. No sane lawyer will even recommend dragging you to court for that because the judge will like fine the suer and find the sued party not guilty. No legal department I know would stand behind such a decision, it would be absolutely stupid to drag anyone to court. And most likely the Judge would even have the suing party pay for your expenses and damages incurred by such charges.
      - dmix 8y ago
        They don't need to drag you to court. They fine you using the new EU law, then you refuse to pay and you essentially decide to go to court instead of paying. Even if the company decides to drop the complaint in response either way you have to put a significant amount of effort to get to that point. Merely because you got an email at night. This could happen 100x (or even thousands) for any mid-sized content platform. Most of these things are automated these days. Besides there's no guarantee the parties will automatically act rationally and drop the claims of infringement before threatening court, merely because you claim you were sleeping. And you specifically said a judge won't pursue it, but even that is a maybe.
        zaarn 8y ago
        >Merely because you got an email at night. As mentioned multiple times, if they did this the judge would simply deny the entire fine and suit and they'd have to pay you damages and they'd likely receive a cease&desist order from the court. You must inform parties of violations and allow for adequate time to react to them. Sending an email is already a nono for legal notices as there is no guarantee that the other party even received the mail properly. The only way to properly and legally verifiably send them is to have a write-in mail which the receiver must sign with their signature before receiving. For everything else you might as well send money in an envelope ahead of time. This is not a mere fact this is established procedure. >Besides there's no guarantee the parties will automatically act rationally and drop the claims of infringement before threatening court, merely because you claim you were sleeping. That's not what I've been saying, I've been saying that the infringement still needs to be dealt with but you can obviously not react when you are asleep.
  - golem14 8y ago
    You might still get a letter from some law office to tell you about the violation and a hefty bill for providing this service. I suggest familiarizing yourself with the concept of "abmahnung" in Germany. Quite a racket.
    - zaarn 8y ago
      I'm quite familiar with this concept considering I have gotten a total of 2 Abmahnungen, one of which I paid because I did violate a rule and the other dropped after I threatened to take it to court. You'd be surprised how few of the senders are willing to actually go to court if the outcome is not 100% clear because any case could result in a ruling against them and shut down their business.
  - adynatos 8y ago
    are you seriously arguing for having to interact with the justice system for not responding to an email within an hour as anything but totally wrong? jesus christ, where am i?
    - zaarn 8y ago
      No I'm not and I think I've made that fairly clear in this thread.

by zaarn 8y ago

dmix 8y ago

> German courts at least agree that for such things This implies that you are going to have to go to court because you got an email at 1am and didn't reply right away...in order to fight off potentially serious fines. Whether it's accurate or not it's still very expensive to prove it's inaccuracy (in time alone, not including financially and stress). This has very serious consequences for small and even medium businesses.

zaarn 8y ago
>This implies that you are going to have to go to court No it doesn't, it means that if you get dragged to court because you got the email at 1AM and you were asleep, then you're not guilty of anything. No judge will put up a fine for that.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > if you get dragged to court because you got the email at 1AM and you were asleep, then you're not guilty of anything Getting dragged to court is disruptive, unsettling and expensive.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    And the other party will be found guilty of disrupting your business by having you get into court for complaints without legal grounds.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > the other party will be found guilty of disrupting your business This all sounds quite lucrative for the lawyers and notaries. It remains disruptive, unsettling and expensive, not to mention unnecessary, for everyone else. Depending on which of the EU’s 28 member states’ courts one finds oneself dragged into, what you’re proposing could be years of distraction.
      - zaarn 8y ago
        >It remains disruptive, unsettling and expensive, not to mention unnecessary Nobody will do this, no sane legal department signs this off or approves of such behavior. Doing otherwise is a great way to incinerate their legal licenses. There are fines for behavior like that. The best outcome for the suing party of such a scenario is a 5 minute court room appearance in which the judge slaps you with a restraining order and closes the case. This has literally never been an escalating problem in european courtrooms to my experience because judges don't like that behavior and laws exist to prevent it.
        smsm42 8y ago
        > There are fines for behavior like that. In theory, there are. In practice, the abuse of both copyright and offensive content notifications is rampant and almost never punished. You have to get to real hardcore crime on massive scale before judicial system starts noticing, and even then it can take years and a lot of effort to get it to do anything. In most cases, such abuse is completely unpunished or gets slap on the wrist.
        zaarn 8y ago
        Because the only system that sites implement is the DMCA, which is largely compatible with Notice&Takedown in the EU but N&T has much softer requirements and Art13 now requires human review and a founded response from the copyright holder.
- dmix 8y ago
  > No it doesn't > No judge will put up a fine for that. You're contradicting yourself...you have to go to court to get charges dropped by a judge.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    No I'm not. No sane lawyer will even recommend dragging you to court for that because the judge will like fine the suer and find the sued party not guilty. No legal department I know would stand behind such a decision, it would be absolutely stupid to drag anyone to court. And most likely the Judge would even have the suing party pay for your expenses and damages incurred by such charges.
    - dmix 8y ago
      They don't need to drag you to court. They fine you using the new EU law, then you refuse to pay and you essentially decide to go to court instead of paying. Even if the company decides to drop the complaint in response either way you have to put a significant amount of effort to get to that point. Merely because you got an email at night. This could happen 100x (or even thousands) for any mid-sized content platform. Most of these things are automated these days. Besides there's no guarantee the parties will automatically act rationally and drop the claims of infringement before threatening court, merely because you claim you were sleeping. And you specifically said a judge won't pursue it, but even that is a maybe.
      - zaarn 8y ago
        >Merely because you got an email at night. As mentioned multiple times, if they did this the judge would simply deny the entire fine and suit and they'd have to pay you damages and they'd likely receive a cease&desist order from the court. You must inform parties of violations and allow for adequate time to react to them. Sending an email is already a nono for legal notices as there is no guarantee that the other party even received the mail properly. The only way to properly and legally verifiably send them is to have a write-in mail which the receiver must sign with their signature before receiving. For everything else you might as well send money in an envelope ahead of time. This is not a mere fact this is established procedure. >Besides there's no guarantee the parties will automatically act rationally and drop the claims of infringement before threatening court, merely because you claim you were sleeping. That's not what I've been saying, I've been saying that the infringement still needs to be dealt with but you can obviously not react when you are asleep.
- golem14 8y ago
  You might still get a letter from some law office to tell you about the violation and a hefty bill for providing this service. I suggest familiarizing yourself with the concept of "abmahnung" in Germany. Quite a racket.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    I'm quite familiar with this concept considering I have gotten a total of 2 Abmahnungen, one of which I paid because I did violate a rule and the other dropped after I threatened to take it to court. You'd be surprised how few of the senders are willing to actually go to court if the outcome is not 100% clear because any case could result in a ruling against them and shut down their business.
- adynatos 8y ago
  are you seriously arguing for having to interact with the justice system for not responding to an email within an hour as anything but totally wrong? jesus christ, where am i?
  - zaarn 8y ago
    No I'm not and I think I've made that fairly clear in this thread.