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This is so sad but kind of expected. EU is run by politicians and the public has very little to no insight. After this goes through I will become a single-issu

This is so sad but kind of expected. EU is run by politicians and the public has very little to no insight. After this goes through I will become a single-issue voter, to leave the EU.

kzrdude 8y ago
the European Parliament (here the body making a decision) is the EU institution that supposedly does not have the "democratic deficit", they are elected by the citizens. So in what way is this different from what we expect in democracies?
- bnastic 8y ago
  Ask Brits who their MEPs are, see if they know (or have even heard of MEPs... modulo Farage for his infamy)
  - patrickmcnamara 8y ago
    It's the public's fault if they are uninformed about MEPs who they themselves vote in.
    - iamnothere 8y ago
      Isn't this the same attitude as "it's the user's fault if they click OK" on shrink-wrap legalese, repetitive security prompts, and the like? People are constantly overwhelmed with choices, and eventually they start to economize on their decision-making to focus on immediate needs. Certain systems (particularly those designed by marketers and politicians) are set up to take advantage of this trait.
  - ahakki 8y ago
    Ask Brits who their MPs are, see if they know. And this isn’t a brittish problem. Ask Americans who their Representatives are, see if they know. Not rly an MEP problem I think. Most people don’t care that much.
- sebst 8y ago
  Two points: 1) You could argue whether the EU Parliament has democracy deficits or not. I assume it has (based on the legislation process itself with involvement of the Committee, but also based upon unequally weighted votes of citizens from different countries). 2) However, the most important point is that this law is considered as a "techie niche" by the vast majority of citizens. Also, EU topics as such suffer from a very narrow attention in the general public. Having said this, it is far easier for lobbyists to place such an initiative "under the radar" than it would be to lobby in 28 countries. In techie speak, a centralized entity like the EU is more or less a single point of failure for the unavoidable "bugs" of a democracy.
- contravariant 8y ago
  Well, first of all I have yet to hear about this vote from any of my local news sources. If I didn't browse hackernews I likely wouldn't know about it. Secondly I don't recall voting for any MEPs, as far as I can tell it's similarly not reported on. Besides given the lack of news about what any of the parties are up to it's hard to say anything about who you should even vote for. Thirdly just because somewhere at the end a vaguely democratically elected group of people get to make a decision about it that doesn't somehow absolve the rest of the process from being undemocratic and seemingly driven by corporate interests. The biggest problem being that the decisions on what should be voted on and how seem to be mostly taken by an unelected group of people, who will evidently (given the way Selmayr was promoted) vote for anything if it gets them better pay and pensions.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    > first of all I have yet to hear about this vote from any of my local news sources This is definitely a deficiency of your local press. > I don't recall voting for any MEPs Elections are held every 5 years and organised by your local electoral authorities? Which country are you in and are you a national or a resident?
    - candiodari 8y ago
      Actually this proposal was a commission proposal, so the democratic deficit here is that this proposal could have gone through, EVEN IF it was voted out. So that's one, in my opinion very big problem. Second, people are just not aware of what power the EU has. And the politicians I speak to actually see this as an advantage. One told me specifically that without power like this we would still have the insanity of driving on the left of the road in Norway, or would still have the separate currencies (which of course, would also have prevented a lot of problems in Greece, Italy, Spain, Ireland and Portugal, and provided better lives for probably 100 million (!) people). So that's the second part. Nobody cares about the EU, because there is no unity. Europeans don't feel part of Europe. They feel they're part of France, Belgium, UK, but not of Europe. So they don't care. There is little to no local presence of any EU agency.
raverbashing 8y ago
Of course, individual countries can still pass draconian legislation But I think this can have a significant impact on the perception of the EU on the general public
akerro 8y ago
>After this goes through I will become a single-issue voter, to leave the EU. This law will be introduced in Switzerland, Norway and UK. Most probably UK will have to keep it after Brexit.
- graphenus 8y ago
  Why would Switzerland and Norway introduce this law?
  - Scarblac 8y ago
    They are bound by treaties to implement EU directives like this. Part of the single market.
    - Brede 8y ago
      Technically, we can say no. But our politicians never do. My guess is that they do not want to step on any toes, which could make getting a sweet job in Brussels after their term ends harder.
      - mscasts 8y ago
        If there is great resistance from the public after it becomes a disaster for all eu-countries it is much more likely to not go through than in an eu-country with resistance.
lorenzobr 8y ago
Do you really believe this is something politicians came up with in the first place? This is another example of the classic lobbies-driven political decision where politicians pass legislations as a favour to their friends in corporate A or corporate B. Also, if they think this will fix the revenue problems of the majority of newspaper publishers they are certainly wrong, newspaper are not dying because people read news on Google.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  > This is another example of the classic lobbies-driven political decision where politicians pass legislations as a favour to their friends in corporate A or corporate B. It's still the politicians passing the law. The fact that back-handers might be involved only makes them potentially even more corrupt.
- puzzle 8y ago
  It's worse: this is driven by Doepfner and co. They don't even hide.
- mscasts 8y ago
  Well, yes. Politicians created the system where it was possible for this to go through without any support from citizens, because they have simply no idea what is going on inside the EU. TL;DR, politicians created the EU, it currently sucks even if they pass some very good laws sometimes. Now it's time for some very bad laws, the issue is that these laws is so bad the good laws seems very small in comparison.
pornel 8y ago
If you follow Julia Reda's blog (she's MEP), you can get tons of insight into this issue in the EU parliament: https://juliareda.eu/2018/09/copyright-showdown/ https://juliareda.eu/2018/09/copyright-showdown/
- bobcostas55 8y ago
  >Rightholders are liable for unjustified takedowns That's potentially interesting, what does it mean in practice though? How would they be liable? If there was a monetary penalty attached, the record companies would be bankrupt in a day based on the false positives of the youtube content ID algorithm.
pjc50 8y ago
This is somewhat true, but are national legislatures really any better? There's nothing quite like Brexit to convince me that my local legislature is completely refusing to listen to me (or anyone with any sense) at all on even the most basic issues.
- zaroth 8y ago
  National legislatures are better to the extent that the populace exerts direct electoral control over their representatives. If the election of Trump or Ocasio-Cortez taught us anything, it should be that appealing to voters can get you into office, even with powerful entrenched interests running against you. Elected politicians are 100% beholden to their voters, now more than ever.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    But MEPs are elected? (also I find it odd when people apply this argument to the UK where we have a fully unelected upper house!)
things 8y ago
If you think being outside the EU will stop politicians voting for these types of laws, here's a nice UK example for you that "make administrators and moderators of certain online forums responsible for content published on those forums" https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/onlineforums.html https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/onlineforums.ht...
Jdam 8y ago
> After this goes through I will become a single-issue voter, to leave the EU. Same. This institution has given me enough. Not only in tech.

This is so sad but kind of expected. EU is run by politicians and the public has very little to no insight. After this goes through I will become a single-issue voter, to leave the EU.

kzrdude 8y ago

the European Parliament (here the body making a decision) is the EU institution that supposedly does not have the "democratic deficit", they are elected by the citizens. So in what way is this different from what we expect in democracies?

bnastic 8y ago
Ask Brits who their MEPs are, see if they know (or have even heard of MEPs... modulo Farage for his infamy)
- patrickmcnamara 8y ago
  It's the public's fault if they are uninformed about MEPs who they themselves vote in.
  - iamnothere 8y ago
    Isn't this the same attitude as "it's the user's fault if they click OK" on shrink-wrap legalese, repetitive security prompts, and the like? People are constantly overwhelmed with choices, and eventually they start to economize on their decision-making to focus on immediate needs. Certain systems (particularly those designed by marketers and politicians) are set up to take advantage of this trait.
- ahakki 8y ago
  Ask Brits who their MPs are, see if they know. And this isn’t a brittish problem. Ask Americans who their Representatives are, see if they know. Not rly an MEP problem I think. Most people don’t care that much.
sebst 8y ago
Two points: 1) You could argue whether the EU Parliament has democracy deficits or not. I assume it has (based on the legislation process itself with involvement of the Committee, but also based upon unequally weighted votes of citizens from different countries). 2) However, the most important point is that this law is considered as a "techie niche" by the vast majority of citizens. Also, EU topics as such suffer from a very narrow attention in the general public. Having said this, it is far easier for lobbyists to place such an initiative "under the radar" than it would be to lobby in 28 countries. In techie speak, a centralized entity like the EU is more or less a single point of failure for the unavoidable "bugs" of a democracy.
contravariant 8y ago
Well, first of all I have yet to hear about this vote from any of my local news sources. If I didn't browse hackernews I likely wouldn't know about it. Secondly I don't recall voting for any MEPs, as far as I can tell it's similarly not reported on. Besides given the lack of news about what any of the parties are up to it's hard to say anything about who you should even vote for. Thirdly just because somewhere at the end a vaguely democratically elected group of people get to make a decision about it that doesn't somehow absolve the rest of the process from being undemocratic and seemingly driven by corporate interests. The biggest problem being that the decisions on what should be voted on and how seem to be mostly taken by an unelected group of people, who will evidently (given the way Selmayr was promoted) vote for anything if it gets them better pay and pensions.
- pjc50 8y ago
  > first of all I have yet to hear about this vote from any of my local news sources This is definitely a deficiency of your local press. > I don't recall voting for any MEPs Elections are held every 5 years and organised by your local electoral authorities? Which country are you in and are you a national or a resident?
  - candiodari 8y ago
    Actually this proposal was a commission proposal, so the democratic deficit here is that this proposal could have gone through, EVEN IF it was voted out. So that's one, in my opinion very big problem. Second, people are just not aware of what power the EU has. And the politicians I speak to actually see this as an advantage. One told me specifically that without power like this we would still have the insanity of driving on the left of the road in Norway, or would still have the separate currencies (which of course, would also have prevented a lot of problems in Greece, Italy, Spain, Ireland and Portugal, and provided better lives for probably 100 million (!) people). So that's the second part. Nobody cares about the EU, because there is no unity. Europeans don't feel part of Europe. They feel they're part of France, Belgium, UK, but not of Europe. So they don't care. There is little to no local presence of any EU agency.

raverbashing 8y ago

Of course, individual countries can still pass draconian legislation But I think this can have a significant impact on the perception of the EU on the general public

akerro 8y ago

>After this goes through I will become a single-issue voter, to leave the EU. This law will be introduced in Switzerland, Norway and UK. Most probably UK will have to keep it after Brexit.

graphenus 8y ago
Why would Switzerland and Norway introduce this law?
- Scarblac 8y ago
  They are bound by treaties to implement EU directives like this. Part of the single market.
  - Brede 8y ago
    Technically, we can say no. But our politicians never do. My guess is that they do not want to step on any toes, which could make getting a sweet job in Brussels after their term ends harder.
    - mscasts 8y ago
      If there is great resistance from the public after it becomes a disaster for all eu-countries it is much more likely to not go through than in an eu-country with resistance.

lorenzobr 8y ago

Do you really believe this is something politicians came up with in the first place? This is another example of the classic lobbies-driven political decision where politicians pass legislations as a favour to their friends in corporate A or corporate B. Also, if they think this will fix the revenue problems of the majority of newspaper publishers they are certainly wrong, newspaper are not dying because people read news on Google.

beaconstudios 8y ago
> This is another example of the classic lobbies-driven political decision where politicians pass legislations as a favour to their friends in corporate A or corporate B. It's still the politicians passing the law. The fact that back-handers might be involved only makes them potentially even more corrupt.
puzzle 8y ago
It's worse: this is driven by Doepfner and co. They don't even hide.
mscasts 8y ago
Well, yes. Politicians created the system where it was possible for this to go through without any support from citizens, because they have simply no idea what is going on inside the EU. TL;DR, politicians created the EU, it currently sucks even if they pass some very good laws sometimes. Now it's time for some very bad laws, the issue is that these laws is so bad the good laws seems very small in comparison.

pornel 8y ago

If you follow Julia Reda's blog (she's MEP), you can get tons of insight into this issue in the EU parliament: https://juliareda.eu/2018/09/copyright-showdown/ https://juliareda.eu/2018/09/copyright-showdown/

bobcostas55 8y ago
>Rightholders are liable for unjustified takedowns That's potentially interesting, what does it mean in practice though? How would they be liable? If there was a monetary penalty attached, the record companies would be bankrupt in a day based on the false positives of the youtube content ID algorithm.

pjc50 8y ago

This is somewhat true, but are national legislatures really any better? There's nothing quite like Brexit to convince me that my local legislature is completely refusing to listen to me (or anyone with any sense) at all on even the most basic issues.

zaroth 8y ago
National legislatures are better to the extent that the populace exerts direct electoral control over their representatives. If the election of Trump or Ocasio-Cortez taught us anything, it should be that appealing to voters can get you into office, even with powerful entrenched interests running against you. Elected politicians are 100% beholden to their voters, now more than ever.
- pjc50 8y ago
  But MEPs are elected? (also I find it odd when people apply this argument to the UK where we have a fully unelected upper house!)

things 8y ago

If you think being outside the EU will stop politicians voting for these types of laws, here's a nice UK example for you that "make administrators and moderators of certain online forums responsible for content published on those forums" https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/onlineforums.html https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/onlineforums.ht...

Jdam 8y ago

> After this goes through I will become a single-issue voter, to leave the EU. Same. This institution has given me enough. Not only in tech.