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A modern wealthy society that allows a bad-but-understandable move by a 16 year old girl to basically wreck her entire life, is a cruel society. Also don't ove

A modern wealthy society that allows a bad-but-understandable move by a 16 year old girl to basically wreck her entire life, is a cruel society. Also don't overlook that America is also supposed to be a country of redemption and second chances, and that we as a society derive strength from that. We foster risk-taking, and we don't throw away people who seriously screw up - but rather capitalize on the fact that those who have overcome serious mistakes often become formidable humans. This is one of the bright spots of American culture, lets not throw it away for the cheap thrill of standing in self-righteous judgment.

oftenwrong 8y ago
>America is also supposed to be a country of redemption and second chances >We foster risk-taking, and we don't throw away people who seriously screw up These are things some Americans would like to be true, but are actually far from true, and far from universally supported. America IS a cruel society in many ways. Many Americans blame the poor for being poor, and do not support any form of public assistance. The nation does "throw away" people who screw up - the nation has a high incarceration rate.
- m_fayer 8y ago
  Yes, you're absolutely right. I guess what I should have said is that those things are parts of the American mythology, and I would really like the country to start living up to them.
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    The mythology is part of the situation, IMHO, rather than ideal people want to enable. It's how people avoid the anxiety without letting go of their narcissism.
- Fellshard 8y ago
  Because we rejected the local institutions that are there to catch those rejected from the larger society and bring them back into the fold. It's a multi-component, multi-tiered system where we've decided to unplug all but the parts we think are most visible.
andrewclunn 8y ago
Here have all the freedom, but none of the consequences. We'll just tax more responsible people if you scree up. Huh... why are there suddenly so many freeloaders?
daddyofive 8y ago
At 16, she could have chosen to do a million things that would have messed up her life. Kids can choose to hurt themselves in many ways. We can’t “not allow” kids to do jumps on their dirt bikes or venture into danger in other ways. Once they are given freedom from constant adult supervision, they have to act in self interest. You think that being 16 somehow absolves them from the responsibility of surviving. That’s ridiculous and unnatural.
- m_fayer 8y ago
  No, we should precisely look to let kids "down easy" from their errors, rather than ban activities that can lead to those errors, for the very same ends that you're advocating. When too many possible mistakes have big irreversible penalties, everyone becomes much more risk averse, and the society becomes boring and rigid. See: helicopter parenting.
  - daddyofive 8y ago
    Helicopter parenting basically augments the kids decision making. The parent guides them through everything. When the consequences are real, even permanent sometimes, and the it’s up to the kids to do the right thing, and they know it, and they’ve been educated properly on it, then you get a person who is healthy. They develop risk assessment and management and use it in their adult life where, surprise, you have to make essentially life or death decisions every day. You can rack up 30k on your credit card in a single swipe and, for a lot of people, that would be a kind of death. Almost every decision we make has irreversible consequences. The earlier kids learn to deal with that, the better. As long as they are educated and prepared in some way.
radiantswirl 8y ago
The level to which you are removing Vanessa’s agency in your attempts to relieve her of responsibility is frankly sexist. Don’t be sexist. She has agency. She has responsibility. She made her bed and now she lies in it. People with your paternalistic condescending thought process are ultimately what holds people like Vanessa back in society in the first place. Don’t take away her agency. She’s responsible for any decisions she’s made, good or bad. And 99% of her 16yr old female peers know that having a kid at 16 is a “ bad decision.” It’s literally sexist as fuck to suggest she was somehow stupid enough or irresponsible enough not to know what she was getting into. Vanessa KNEW she was making a “bad decision” and she CHOSE to make it anyway. Stop pretending like she didn’t choose it. Stop pretending like she has no agency. Stop being sexist. Thank you
sonnyblarney 8y ago
If she really wants to have a kid, she can have that. To many people having a family is the #1 thing you know, the 'economics' are in support of that.
marknutter 8y ago
America isn't a cruel society, it's a society that recognizes that life is inherently cruel. No amount of collective effort will ever change that, and so Americans focus on strengthening themselves in order that they will be better able to handle the cruelty of life.
- m_fayer 8y ago
  Citation needed.

oftenwrong 8y ago

>America is also supposed to be a country of redemption and second chances >We foster risk-taking, and we don't throw away people who seriously screw up These are things some Americans would like to be true, but are actually far from true, and far from universally supported. America IS a cruel society in many ways. Many Americans blame the poor for being poor, and do not support any form of public assistance. The nation does "throw away" people who screw up - the nation has a high incarceration rate.

m_fayer 8y ago
Yes, you're absolutely right. I guess what I should have said is that those things are parts of the American mythology, and I would really like the country to start living up to them.
- WalterSear 8y ago
  The mythology is part of the situation, IMHO, rather than ideal people want to enable. It's how people avoid the anxiety without letting go of their narcissism.
Fellshard 8y ago
Because we rejected the local institutions that are there to catch those rejected from the larger society and bring them back into the fold. It's a multi-component, multi-tiered system where we've decided to unplug all but the parts we think are most visible.

andrewclunn 8y ago

Here have all the freedom, but none of the consequences. We'll just tax more responsible people if you scree up. Huh... why are there suddenly so many freeloaders?

daddyofive 8y ago

At 16, she could have chosen to do a million things that would have messed up her life. Kids can choose to hurt themselves in many ways. We can’t “not allow” kids to do jumps on their dirt bikes or venture into danger in other ways. Once they are given freedom from constant adult supervision, they have to act in self interest. You think that being 16 somehow absolves them from the responsibility of surviving. That’s ridiculous and unnatural.

m_fayer 8y ago
No, we should precisely look to let kids "down easy" from their errors, rather than ban activities that can lead to those errors, for the very same ends that you're advocating. When too many possible mistakes have big irreversible penalties, everyone becomes much more risk averse, and the society becomes boring and rigid. See: helicopter parenting.
- daddyofive 8y ago
  Helicopter parenting basically augments the kids decision making. The parent guides them through everything. When the consequences are real, even permanent sometimes, and the it’s up to the kids to do the right thing, and they know it, and they’ve been educated properly on it, then you get a person who is healthy. They develop risk assessment and management and use it in their adult life where, surprise, you have to make essentially life or death decisions every day. You can rack up 30k on your credit card in a single swipe and, for a lot of people, that would be a kind of death. Almost every decision we make has irreversible consequences. The earlier kids learn to deal with that, the better. As long as they are educated and prepared in some way.

radiantswirl 8y ago

The level to which you are removing Vanessa’s agency in your attempts to relieve her of responsibility is frankly sexist. Don’t be sexist. She has agency. She has responsibility. She made her bed and now she lies in it. People with your paternalistic condescending thought process are ultimately what holds people like Vanessa back in society in the first place. Don’t take away her agency. She’s responsible for any decisions she’s made, good or bad. And 99% of her 16yr old female peers know that having a kid at 16 is a “ bad decision.” It’s literally sexist as fuck to suggest she was somehow stupid enough or irresponsible enough not to know what she was getting into. Vanessa KNEW she was making a “bad decision” and she CHOSE to make it anyway. Stop pretending like she didn’t choose it. Stop pretending like she has no agency. Stop being sexist. Thank you

sonnyblarney 8y ago

If she really wants to have a kid, she can have that. To many people having a family is the #1 thing you know, the 'economics' are in support of that.

marknutter 8y ago

America isn't a cruel society, it's a society that recognizes that life is inherently cruel. No amount of collective effort will ever change that, and so Americans focus on strengthening themselves in order that they will be better able to handle the cruelty of life.

m_fayer 8y ago
Citation needed.