6 ms·

There is a somewhat parallel discussion in Scandinavia on going cashless. Exactly the same issues: Poor people being marginalized, old people unable to use new

by chvid 8y ago

There is a somewhat parallel discussion in Scandinavia on going cashless. Exactly the same issues: Poor people being marginalized, old people unable to use new technologies. And the uniquely Scandinavian; how to do "black work", work that is not reported to the tax authorities, without cash.

lotsofpulp 8y ago
Black work (and black money) is most definitely not uniquely Scandinavian.
- TheCycoONE 8y ago
  It might be uniquely Scandinavian if that was seen by government as a concern rather than an advantage. It isn't clear if this is what the gp is saying though.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    I know the governments in India/China/US don’t like black money. After a certain point, an organization gets so big that it’s more profitable for those at the top to make sure everything is accounted for rather than letting all the little minions take their cut. It would be beneficial for all of society if everything was accounted for, but only if everything was completely transparent, so that everyone can see what everyone is doing to hold each other accountable. Right now, we’re heading towards the worst system. The ones with the guns and bombs (power) get to see what all the masses are doing, but the masses don’t get to see what they are doing.
    - dis-sys 8y ago
      > I know the governments in India/China/US don’t like black money. for 99% Chinese, as of writing, the Chinese government doesn't care what they are doing when it comes to personal tax. the fundamental difference here is that 90% of the tax collected by the Chinese governments are from companies, personal tax including those doing family business only counts for a very small %. that is the exact reason why small business vendors all started accepting mobile payment - they know full well that there is no tax risk for doing that. things only become different when you are the big fish in the pond - if you only have a few million $ worth of black money, the safest place to keep it is your local branch of the biggest state owned bank.
      - Loughla 8y ago
        That just seems so arbitrary and dangerous. SO there is no risk right now. But what happens if I make the wrong person mad? Now there's a trail of cash that I haven't paid tax on, and they've got me. It just seems like a way to bake possible governmental control into an uncontrollable system like black money.
        dis-sys 8y ago
        > But what happens if I make the wrong person mad? Now there's a trail of cash that I haven't paid tax on, and they've got me. always pay your tax OR be nice. both are actually easy!
        Loughla 8y ago
        >that is the exact reason why small business vendors all started accepting mobile payment - they know full well that there is no tax risk for doing that. Your statement. I understand that to avoid getting caught for breaking the law, don't break the law. But this conversation was in the context of black markets and their 'no risk' existence at the good graces of the Chinese government. What you call 'no risk' is actually just hard-coded blackmail from the government, I believe.
sharpneli 8y ago
From Finnish perspective: Banks are mandated to provide basic accounts and Visa Electron equivalent cards to anyone applying. This is because social support and pensions are paid to bank accounts instead of as cash.
- hocuspocus 8y ago
  It's a EU directive: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-products-and-services/bank-accounts-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr...
- gowld 8y ago
  In USA debit cards are a common way to receive benefits, but there's no bank account attached. A bank account wouldn't add much though, except perhaps a persistent long-lived account number which might be useful.
- clubm8 8y ago
  That law sounds good, but does Finland have the same issue as the US with regard to fraud protection? In case you're not familiar, US debit cards are tied to a bank account, but weirdly can be used without a PIN if they are run as a credit card anywhere that takes MC/Visa/whatever-the-issuer-is. However, the charge is deducted immediately from your account as would a debit charge. This means if there's fraud, even if you are refunded eventually you will be without access to money for some period of time. The easy fix is to withdraw some cash for day to day stuff from a trusted bank ATM rather than constantly swipe your card. Even if the government provides you a no frills bank account, the fraud risk would make many prefer to use their card as little as possible in the USA.
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    VISA Electron (and I believe Maestro, the MasterCard equivalent) cards only support "online" transactions, so they're able to reject transactions without a PIN, without enough money in the account, etc. They don't even have embossed numbers so you can't run them in one of those old carbon copy machines. This is why they are issued to people who are underage or a credit risk since they can't run an offline transaction without coverage in the account.

by chvid 8y ago

lotsofpulp 8y ago

Black work (and black money) is most definitely not uniquely Scandinavian.

TheCycoONE 8y ago
It might be uniquely Scandinavian if that was seen by government as a concern rather than an advantage. It isn't clear if this is what the gp is saying though.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  I know the governments in India/China/US don’t like black money. After a certain point, an organization gets so big that it’s more profitable for those at the top to make sure everything is accounted for rather than letting all the little minions take their cut. It would be beneficial for all of society if everything was accounted for, but only if everything was completely transparent, so that everyone can see what everyone is doing to hold each other accountable. Right now, we’re heading towards the worst system. The ones with the guns and bombs (power) get to see what all the masses are doing, but the masses don’t get to see what they are doing.
  - dis-sys 8y ago
    > I know the governments in India/China/US don’t like black money. for 99% Chinese, as of writing, the Chinese government doesn't care what they are doing when it comes to personal tax. the fundamental difference here is that 90% of the tax collected by the Chinese governments are from companies, personal tax including those doing family business only counts for a very small %. that is the exact reason why small business vendors all started accepting mobile payment - they know full well that there is no tax risk for doing that. things only become different when you are the big fish in the pond - if you only have a few million $ worth of black money, the safest place to keep it is your local branch of the biggest state owned bank.
    - Loughla 8y ago
      That just seems so arbitrary and dangerous. SO there is no risk right now. But what happens if I make the wrong person mad? Now there's a trail of cash that I haven't paid tax on, and they've got me. It just seems like a way to bake possible governmental control into an uncontrollable system like black money.
      - dis-sys 8y ago
        > But what happens if I make the wrong person mad? Now there's a trail of cash that I haven't paid tax on, and they've got me. always pay your tax OR be nice. both are actually easy!
        Loughla 8y ago
        >that is the exact reason why small business vendors all started accepting mobile payment - they know full well that there is no tax risk for doing that. Your statement. I understand that to avoid getting caught for breaking the law, don't break the law. But this conversation was in the context of black markets and their 'no risk' existence at the good graces of the Chinese government. What you call 'no risk' is actually just hard-coded blackmail from the government, I believe.

sharpneli 8y ago

From Finnish perspective: Banks are mandated to provide basic accounts and Visa Electron equivalent cards to anyone applying. This is because social support and pensions are paid to bank accounts instead of as cash.

hocuspocus 8y ago
It's a EU directive: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-products-and-services/bank-accounts-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr...
gowld 8y ago
In USA debit cards are a common way to receive benefits, but there's no bank account attached. A bank account wouldn't add much though, except perhaps a persistent long-lived account number which might be useful.
clubm8 8y ago
That law sounds good, but does Finland have the same issue as the US with regard to fraud protection? In case you're not familiar, US debit cards are tied to a bank account, but weirdly can be used without a PIN if they are run as a credit card anywhere that takes MC/Visa/whatever-the-issuer-is. However, the charge is deducted immediately from your account as would a debit charge. This means if there's fraud, even if you are refunded eventually you will be without access to money for some period of time. The easy fix is to withdraw some cash for day to day stuff from a trusted bank ATM rather than constantly swipe your card. Even if the government provides you a no frills bank account, the fraud risk would make many prefer to use their card as little as possible in the USA.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  VISA Electron (and I believe Maestro, the MasterCard equivalent) cards only support "online" transactions, so they're able to reject transactions without a PIN, without enough money in the account, etc. They don't even have embossed numbers so you can't run them in one of those old carbon copy machines. This is why they are issued to people who are underage or a credit risk since they can't run an offline transaction without coverage in the account.