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While not totally free (access costs) a vast majority of the knowlage I've learned and use for my job has been from free resources online. Realistically, I've p

by lyzan 8y ago

While not totally free (access costs) a vast majority of the knowlage I've learned and use for my job has been from free resources online. Realistically, I've probably spent under $500 in 10 years on educational materials (excluding buying my first non-work-sponsored laptop) and am now "Senior" level in my field. Plus almost all that was in more recent years as I'm trying learn more theoretical / academic applications. Combine that with most cities having libraries with free books and in major cities free internet, and I'd argue is cheaper and easier than ever to learn, though it does still cost time.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago
How much of that could you do pulling multiple low-wage jobs and raising child(ren)? If you yourself had a serious chronic illness? If you yourself was raised in poverty so you had to go to schools with high failure rates and no education in which to acquire your own education?
- lyzan 8y ago
  Oh, don't get me wrong: I don't think its the best option, but the scenario first described in question was a homeless man with indefinite "free" time on their hands. I personally work 2 full time jobs, I'm aware how scarce free time can get. I'm certainly not saying that everyone can do it on their own either. Just that cost is a very weak barrier to knowledge and that I agree you need to learn your way out of poverty. I'm also a big proponent of basic income exactly for the reasons above, but I think the core idea is well founded. Hard work at a job (or two jobs) doesn't usually get you out of a shitty job, where as learning enough to get a better job does.
presscast 8y ago
Time is money, as the saying goes. When you're working a double shift to put food on the table, it's really hard to learn an extra skill set (e.g. programming) and make time to build up a resume on github (or whatever). The cost isn't really located in the act of "buying" education.
- lyzan 8y ago
  I work 80+ hours a week, you don't need to tell me about time. However EVERY friend I have making significantly less than me / slightly struggling works a single job and spends significant free time in front of TV or games or facebook. My friend that worked hard all the time I taught coding to in under 8 months and he broke 6 figures within 3 years. The ones that were lazy I tried and they didn't put effort in to continue and didnt learn enough to switch jobs and are still doing the same thing.
  - presscast 8y ago
    To an extent, we can agree that poverty is a function of making bad decisions. Certainly, living frugally and using one's time well are necessary for financial success. That said, making good decisions isn't sufficient, especially when you're trying to claw your way out of deep poverty. You need more than just hard word. You need the opportunity to do the right kind of hard work, which many people lack.
  - ss2003 8y ago
    Not everyone is cut out to be a programmer
  - ionised 8y ago
    > I work 80+ hours a week Why?
  - sinker 8y ago
    I see comments like these often enough to convince me that a large portion of the active HN audience are simply out of touch with what's going on outside their major city tech bubble. Not everyone is going to be able to find a well-paying tech job. How many times have you come onto this forum seeing active HNers who are tech-literate and have a history of programming employment complain that they cannot find a job? Look at your neighbors.. everyday people like your grocer or mechanic or mailperson.. Take a look outside your bubble. Not everyone is going to be able to be fluent in tech even with great effort. It's not so much that it's impossible, but that's it's incredibly unrealistic. The only reason I've been able to work as a programmer is because I lucked into it. I got hooked when I was 12 or so because I found it fun. I had plenty of time and enjoyed it. If I had to do it all over today out of desperation I'm not sure I could will myself to do something completely foreign and uninteresting. I think you take for granted the knowledge foundation that you were given.
baq 8y ago
you 1) had a job 2) had access to the internet now trying learning anything for free online when you don't have money for food because you're jobless and don't have access to the internet because you don't have money for that either.
- lyzan 8y ago
  Yes, for (1) I had a $10/hr job working as a cashier until I saved up enough for a laptop and got an unpaid internship in tech. For (2) as I said: libraries are free, coffee shops are free. hotel lobbies are free, heck some whole areas have free Wi-Fi. Internet is very easy to find. I'll be the first to admit I had a good education, caring and supportive family, and my story would be different and harder without them, but I can't imagine a world that I didn't try to learn something new each day. Again though, people always try and compare the worst. The solution for someone without a living wage job is a society that doesn't allow that to happen and is a different argument IMO. Getting out of abject poverty is very different than getting out of poverty / being poor. That said, for someone homeless and jobless, time IS their greatest resource, so learning can be a useful resort. Further no one said they had to do it on their own. The main premise here is that learning is better than hard work for increasing your station. I think that's true regardless of feasibility.
  - zero_intp 8y ago
    try being a person of color in a coffee shop or hotel lobby. Maybe you heard about some difficulties for a pair of young men had in a Philadelphia Starbucks?
    - pleasebecivil 8y ago
      As a POC I have never been kicked out of a library or a Starbucks and I'm from the south. Situations happen, but that doesn't mean it happens everywhere. Sometimes I wonder why when you look at me all you see is a helpless POC, it's very demoralizing and trivializes us.
  - scarface74 8y ago

by lyzan 8y ago

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

How much of that could you do pulling multiple low-wage jobs and raising child(ren)? If you yourself had a serious chronic illness? If you yourself was raised in poverty so you had to go to schools with high failure rates and no education in which to acquire your own education?

lyzan 8y ago
Oh, don't get me wrong: I don't think its the best option, but the scenario first described in question was a homeless man with indefinite "free" time on their hands. I personally work 2 full time jobs, I'm aware how scarce free time can get. I'm certainly not saying that everyone can do it on their own either. Just that cost is a very weak barrier to knowledge and that I agree you need to learn your way out of poverty. I'm also a big proponent of basic income exactly for the reasons above, but I think the core idea is well founded. Hard work at a job (or two jobs) doesn't usually get you out of a shitty job, where as learning enough to get a better job does.

presscast 8y ago

Time is money, as the saying goes. When you're working a double shift to put food on the table, it's really hard to learn an extra skill set (e.g. programming) and make time to build up a resume on github (or whatever). The cost isn't really located in the act of "buying" education.

lyzan 8y ago
I work 80+ hours a week, you don't need to tell me about time. However EVERY friend I have making significantly less than me / slightly struggling works a single job and spends significant free time in front of TV or games or facebook. My friend that worked hard all the time I taught coding to in under 8 months and he broke 6 figures within 3 years. The ones that were lazy I tried and they didn't put effort in to continue and didnt learn enough to switch jobs and are still doing the same thing.
- presscast 8y ago
  To an extent, we can agree that poverty is a function of making bad decisions. Certainly, living frugally and using one's time well are necessary for financial success. That said, making good decisions isn't sufficient, especially when you're trying to claw your way out of deep poverty. You need more than just hard word. You need the opportunity to do the right kind of hard work, which many people lack.
- ss2003 8y ago
  Not everyone is cut out to be a programmer
- ionised 8y ago
  > I work 80+ hours a week Why?
- sinker 8y ago
  I see comments like these often enough to convince me that a large portion of the active HN audience are simply out of touch with what's going on outside their major city tech bubble. Not everyone is going to be able to find a well-paying tech job. How many times have you come onto this forum seeing active HNers who are tech-literate and have a history of programming employment complain that they cannot find a job? Look at your neighbors.. everyday people like your grocer or mechanic or mailperson.. Take a look outside your bubble. Not everyone is going to be able to be fluent in tech even with great effort. It's not so much that it's impossible, but that's it's incredibly unrealistic. The only reason I've been able to work as a programmer is because I lucked into it. I got hooked when I was 12 or so because I found it fun. I had plenty of time and enjoyed it. If I had to do it all over today out of desperation I'm not sure I could will myself to do something completely foreign and uninteresting. I think you take for granted the knowledge foundation that you were given.

baq 8y ago

you 1) had a job 2) had access to the internet now trying learning anything for free online when you don't have money for food because you're jobless and don't have access to the internet because you don't have money for that either.

lyzan 8y ago
Yes, for (1) I had a $10/hr job working as a cashier until I saved up enough for a laptop and got an unpaid internship in tech. For (2) as I said: libraries are free, coffee shops are free. hotel lobbies are free, heck some whole areas have free Wi-Fi. Internet is very easy to find. I'll be the first to admit I had a good education, caring and supportive family, and my story would be different and harder without them, but I can't imagine a world that I didn't try to learn something new each day. Again though, people always try and compare the worst. The solution for someone without a living wage job is a society that doesn't allow that to happen and is a different argument IMO. Getting out of abject poverty is very different than getting out of poverty / being poor. That said, for someone homeless and jobless, time IS their greatest resource, so learning can be a useful resort. Further no one said they had to do it on their own. The main premise here is that learning is better than hard work for increasing your station. I think that's true regardless of feasibility.
- zero_intp 8y ago
  try being a person of color in a coffee shop or hotel lobby. Maybe you heard about some difficulties for a pair of young men had in a Philadelphia Starbucks?
  - pleasebecivil 8y ago
    As a POC I have never been kicked out of a library or a Starbucks and I'm from the south. Situations happen, but that doesn't mean it happens everywhere. Sometimes I wonder why when you look at me all you see is a helpless POC, it's very demoralizing and trivializes us.
- scarface74 8y ago