5 ms·

> Video game publishers have been trying consistently to implement a "less for more" attitude when it comes to their products. Isn't maximizing profits just a

by mbel 8y ago

> Video game publishers have been trying consistently to implement a "less for more" attitude when it comes to their products. Isn't maximizing profits just a natural consequence of having a for-profit business? It's not just evil video game publishers, everybody wants to sell less for more.

daemin 8y ago
The problem is that in their pursuit of profit they are creating slot machines with the actual game on the side. Then they are crippling the game so that you have to use the slot machine to have any sense of fun while playing the game. Therefore there are two choices: Either they get regulated as other slot machine makers around the world, including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine operator. Or alternatively just make a video game and sell that and not have to deal with all the regulation.
- mbel 8y ago
  Yeah, I'm absolutely aware what is happening here. Of course if they are creating slot machines they should follow the related regulations. However there is nothing that forces them to make actual games. If they can make business by selling virtual slot machines let them do so as long as it's legal. After all they are not the only game publisher out there and if there is an actual need for quality games it will be fulfilled by other publishers.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  The culture has changed and is ok with gambling being inserted everywhere, especially in tech circles. Look at the threads about daily fantasy sports in HN. Many impassioned comments about how the ability to bet on sports is freedom, etc..
  - simion314 8y ago
    Not OP, not everyone wants to make gambling illegal just regulate it so some categories of people don't get abused. If the game is gambling then the existing rules for gambling need to apply, if you don't like the existing rules then you need to try to change them.
    - pixl97 8y ago
      A very strong lobby exist to prevent gambling rules from applying to games. This discussion is just one battle over it.
  - efdee 8y ago
    Having the ability to bet is freedom. Being seduced (avoiding the word 'forced' here) into betting under the guise of a game... not so much.
    - Spooky23 8y ago
      I don’t see the nuance between a loot box and a slot machine designed to extract $50-$100/hr from a bettor.
      - efdee 8y ago
        There is not much of a difference. The question is, did your $60 buy you a game, or a program that is designed to just make you buy as many loot boxes as possible? If the games are no more than glorified casinos, they should be regulated as such.
      - falcolas 8y ago
        With a slot machine, you have the chance to win money back. With loot boxes, you don't (any "rewards" are forever locked up in the game).
      - vertex-four 8y ago
        A slot machine is clearly a slot machine, and is additionally labelled as such, with mandated warnings. A video game is not - a video game which is actually a slot machine looks very similar to an actual video game.
- dx87 8y ago
  Which games are you talking about that require you to open loot boxes in order to have fun in the game? The most popular games that I can think of with loot boxes, Hearthstone, Dota 2, Overwatch, CS:GO, PUBG, all either have strictly cosmetic items in the loot boxes, or have ways of getting the loot boxes free through gameplay. Saying that major developers are creating games that require you to buy loot boxes in order to have any fun in the game sounds like unnecessary hyperbole.
  - seppoastian 8y ago
    "Middle-earth: Shadow of War" comes to mind. To beat the endgame you either had to grind really hard, or just buy loot boxes (to get best Orcs, Equipment and Buffs). They said that the lootboxes didn't have an influence on the game "difficulty", but after they removed the lootboxes the endgame was also patched to adjust for normal play. They also had a PvP element where you could attack other peoples strongholds, but with the lootboxes it was also pay to win.
  - daemin 8y ago
    The classic one is Star Wars Battlefront 2 where they altered the progression system so that you either grind for an incredibly long time (much longer than reviewers had to) to get the better characters. There was an uproar about it - and the most negatively voted reddit comment in history - and then they changed the game and removed the loot boxes.
  - falcolas 8y ago
    Just look at the games listed in this article: FIFA. The output from these loot boxes directly impacts your ability to play the game. It's not just cosmetic.
  - totony 8y ago
    I feel like Hearthstone is the outlier in your list Card games are gambling. True, you can get gambling credits by grinding a lot in Hearthstone, but I feel this is despicable especially for a card game catering to mostly underage or very young people. This applies to non-virtual card games too (e.g. Magic, Pokemon, Yugiho). Pack-opening is kid's gambling. They are made to encourage people to open more packs/make a deck/etc. At least in real-life card games you can trade cards (EDIT: hearthstone has dust - which acts the same).
- gaius 8y ago
  including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine operator. In France so presumably Belgium too, gambling companies are taxed on turnover.
  - daemin 8y ago
    In Australia I'm not sure how much a poker machine (slot machine) maker is taxed over and above the regular company tax, but I know operators of such machines are taxed more (and I think that's a state based tax). Somehow though if EA, Activision, etc were taxed like slot machine operators then they would not be as inclined to include this stuff in their games.
xg15 8y ago
Indeed it is. Doesn't make it a good thing. However, I think the entertainment industry is particularly fond of this. My guess is because its products are both luxury items (so moral arguments against the same practices in housing or pharma don't necessarily apply) and items that consumers potentially have enormous emotional investment in. So once you've managed to build a fanbase, you can get away with a lot before the fans will seriously consider quitting.
menzoic 8y ago
>Isn't maximizing profits just a natural consequence of having a for-profit business? It's not just evil video game publishers, everybody wants to sell less for more. I think less for more naturally would come with inflation across the board but the less for more approach isn't the only way to increase profits or even the most popular one. The computer industry for example is known for scaling by giving more for less. Beverage companies add more drinks for the same price. Less for more requires a monopoly or something close to it, otherwise competitors rush in.
- kazagistar 8y ago
  That is a good point. Since every IP is a state sponsored monopoly, this leads to the state of the game industry. You don't add loot boxes to a new franchise, but to existing ones that people are emotionally invested in. For example, you might have competition in the genre of action RPG set in space, but Star Wars is a monopoly, and another company cannot legally make an alternative, so the people who want a Star Wars game are a more captive audience that can be maximally exploited.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
The way one goes about doing it, however, can be quite evil.

by mbel 8y ago

daemin 8y ago

The problem is that in their pursuit of profit they are creating slot machines with the actual game on the side. Then they are crippling the game so that you have to use the slot machine to have any sense of fun while playing the game. Therefore there are two choices: Either they get regulated as other slot machine makers around the world, including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine operator. Or alternatively just make a video game and sell that and not have to deal with all the regulation.

mbel 8y ago
Yeah, I'm absolutely aware what is happening here. Of course if they are creating slot machines they should follow the related regulations. However there is nothing that forces them to make actual games. If they can make business by selling virtual slot machines let them do so as long as it's legal. After all they are not the only game publisher out there and if there is an actual need for quality games it will be fulfilled by other publishers.
Spooky23 8y ago
The culture has changed and is ok with gambling being inserted everywhere, especially in tech circles. Look at the threads about daily fantasy sports in HN. Many impassioned comments about how the ability to bet on sports is freedom, etc..
- simion314 8y ago
  Not OP, not everyone wants to make gambling illegal just regulate it so some categories of people don't get abused. If the game is gambling then the existing rules for gambling need to apply, if you don't like the existing rules then you need to try to change them.
  - pixl97 8y ago
    A very strong lobby exist to prevent gambling rules from applying to games. This discussion is just one battle over it.
- efdee 8y ago
  Having the ability to bet is freedom. Being seduced (avoiding the word 'forced' here) into betting under the guise of a game... not so much.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    I don’t see the nuance between a loot box and a slot machine designed to extract $50-$100/hr from a bettor.
    - efdee 8y ago
      There is not much of a difference. The question is, did your $60 buy you a game, or a program that is designed to just make you buy as many loot boxes as possible? If the games are no more than glorified casinos, they should be regulated as such.
    - falcolas 8y ago
      With a slot machine, you have the chance to win money back. With loot boxes, you don't (any "rewards" are forever locked up in the game).
    - vertex-four 8y ago
      A slot machine is clearly a slot machine, and is additionally labelled as such, with mandated warnings. A video game is not - a video game which is actually a slot machine looks very similar to an actual video game.
dx87 8y ago
Which games are you talking about that require you to open loot boxes in order to have fun in the game? The most popular games that I can think of with loot boxes, Hearthstone, Dota 2, Overwatch, CS:GO, PUBG, all either have strictly cosmetic items in the loot boxes, or have ways of getting the loot boxes free through gameplay. Saying that major developers are creating games that require you to buy loot boxes in order to have any fun in the game sounds like unnecessary hyperbole.
- seppoastian 8y ago
  "Middle-earth: Shadow of War" comes to mind. To beat the endgame you either had to grind really hard, or just buy loot boxes (to get best Orcs, Equipment and Buffs). They said that the lootboxes didn't have an influence on the game "difficulty", but after they removed the lootboxes the endgame was also patched to adjust for normal play. They also had a PvP element where you could attack other peoples strongholds, but with the lootboxes it was also pay to win.
- daemin 8y ago
  The classic one is Star Wars Battlefront 2 where they altered the progression system so that you either grind for an incredibly long time (much longer than reviewers had to) to get the better characters. There was an uproar about it - and the most negatively voted reddit comment in history - and then they changed the game and removed the loot boxes.
- falcolas 8y ago
  Just look at the games listed in this article: FIFA. The output from these loot boxes directly impacts your ability to play the game. It's not just cosmetic.
- totony 8y ago
  I feel like Hearthstone is the outlier in your list Card games are gambling. True, you can get gambling credits by grinding a lot in Hearthstone, but I feel this is despicable especially for a card game catering to mostly underage or very young people. This applies to non-virtual card games too (e.g. Magic, Pokemon, Yugiho). Pack-opening is kid's gambling. They are made to encourage people to open more packs/make a deck/etc. At least in real-life card games you can trade cards (EDIT: hearthstone has dust - which acts the same).
gaius 8y ago
including being taxed as both a slot machine maker and as a slot machine operator. In France so presumably Belgium too, gambling companies are taxed on turnover.
- daemin 8y ago
  In Australia I'm not sure how much a poker machine (slot machine) maker is taxed over and above the regular company tax, but I know operators of such machines are taxed more (and I think that's a state based tax). Somehow though if EA, Activision, etc were taxed like slot machine operators then they would not be as inclined to include this stuff in their games.

xg15 8y ago

Indeed it is. Doesn't make it a good thing. However, I think the entertainment industry is particularly fond of this. My guess is because its products are both luxury items (so moral arguments against the same practices in housing or pharma don't necessarily apply) and items that consumers potentially have enormous emotional investment in. So once you've managed to build a fanbase, you can get away with a lot before the fans will seriously consider quitting.

menzoic 8y ago

>Isn't maximizing profits just a natural consequence of having a for-profit business? It's not just evil video game publishers, everybody wants to sell less for more. I think less for more naturally would come with inflation across the board but the less for more approach isn't the only way to increase profits or even the most popular one. The computer industry for example is known for scaling by giving more for less. Beverage companies add more drinks for the same price. Less for more requires a monopoly or something close to it, otherwise competitors rush in.

kazagistar 8y ago
That is a good point. Since every IP is a state sponsored monopoly, this leads to the state of the game industry. You don't add loot boxes to a new franchise, but to existing ones that people are emotionally invested in. For example, you might have competition in the genre of action RPG set in space, but Star Wars is a monopoly, and another company cannot legally make an alternative, so the people who want a Star Wars game are a more captive audience that can be maximally exploited.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

The way one goes about doing it, however, can be quite evil.