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> the meritocratic myth I've been around to see people over decades, and how their decisions affect their lives. Meritocracy is not a myth. Where people wind u

> the meritocratic myth I've been around to see people over decades, and how their decisions affect their lives. Meritocracy is not a myth. Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. This isn't the Soviet Union where one is assigned a career, a job and an apartment. I've seen immigrants arrive here with nothing and become millionaires. That's why everyone wants to come to America. The opportunity is here.

bsder 8y ago
> Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. True. But we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed?
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    This is the most ridiculous proof that America is the land of opportunity I can imagine. From https://www.wola.org/analysis/fact-sheet-united-states-immigration-central-american-asylum-seekers/ https://www.wola.org/analysis/fact-sheet-united-states-immig... "While the total number of migrants apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border is near its lowest level since the early 1970s, the number of apprehended unaccompanied children and families is again on the rise after a dramatic drop in the months following Trump’s inauguration. This is a vulnerable population who, for the most part, are deliberately seeking out U.S. border security authorities and asking for protection. Affirmative requests for asylum of individuals from Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras have increased by 25 percent in fiscal year 2017 compared to 2016. These people are fleeing for a reason. As White House Chief of Staff John Kelley once put it, the mass migration of children from Central America to the U.S.-Mexico border primarily consists of “[parents that] are trying to save their children.” The countries of El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras are facing unparalleled levels of violent crime, with El Salvador and Honduras ranking among the top five most violent countries in the world."
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      "The United States has been the top destination for international migrants since at least 1960, with one-fifth of the world's migrants living there as of 2017." That doesn't make much sense if the US is a hell-hole of capitalism grinding people into poverty (as immigrants usually have little). In 2016, 1.49 million immigrants came to the US. The median age is 44, so they're hardly all children. Meanwhile, an awful lot more want to come but can't get in legally. > This is the most ridiculous proof that America is the land of opportunity I can imagine. People run to opportunity, not away from it. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested...
      - michaelmrose 8y ago
        People aren't rational you can't prove anything about anything by supposing that people make sense. A lot of the planet is just terrible. Of the places that aren't terrible many wont let you just sneak in and make a living if you live a cash and carry lifestyle. At best you can prove that the US is viewed as better than their current abode by people that don't live here. This is the definition of damning with faint praise.
        skookumchuck 8y ago
        If you actually believe that, it will be come a self-fulfilling prophecy for you. And that will be your choice, as the US is full of opportunity. For example, you can get an MIT education for free on youtube, you can open a business on github for free, you can get funding for free from kickstarter, you can advertise for free on reddit, you can reach a worldwide market for free via the internet, you can write and sell a book on Amazon for free, and on and on. Nobody needs to know your age, gender, ethnicity, religion, location, disability, marital status, etc. There's never been such opportunity, right here anywhere in America.
        michaelmrose 8y ago
        Nobody said there wasn't wealth and promise for many in America. If you remember the first comment you replied to. "But we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class." The entire point is that there is inequality of opportunity and unequal return on equal potential not that there isn't opportunity. If you recall the post I replied to you said "So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed?" This is terrible logic. This is a wealthy nation with lots to offer but people here have actual problems here too. You are glibly dismissing these actual problems with bad logic which personally makes me very angry. Who the heck are you. Imagine if someone was talking about how racism was still a problem in America and you piped in with how your black doctor friend's practice was doing great and people shouldn't let negatives become a self fulfilling prophesy. Well no shit but what we were actually talking about was inequality in America which we can actually do something about. From the individual's prospective whatever society does the individual ought to do the best they can and for many decent lives await in spite of challenges. From the perspective of society we ought to try to maximize everyone's chances as best we can.
  - bsder 8y ago
    > So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed? My ancestors came here because life in the "Old Country" was so bad that braving the crossing of the Atlantic in cattle class on a ship, coming through Ellis Island, finding out that working in New York wasn't much better, and finally landing in the steel mills and coal mines of Western Pennsylvania was a step UP--but not by much. Those same ancestors also stood in front of bullets from Pinkertons because that was preferable to allowing their working conditions to continue. The fact that immigrants move is generally a sign of how shitty the place they are leaving is, not necessarily a sign of how good their destination is.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      And yet they still come to the US in great waves, 1.49 million a year, and many more try to get here.
- burfog 8y ago
  We have social mobility, not a social lottery. Moving all the way from the bottom to the top might take a couple generations, which will obviously involve needing to win at a fierce competition. That looks an awful lot like a meritocracy.
  - blub 8y ago
    That sounds like a crap deal honestly. Come to the US, you'll probably still die poor, but at least maybe your grandchildren will do well. * * does not apply if you or your children get shot by the police for being the wrong shade of brown, maimed by unsafe working conditions associated with low-skilled labour, get sacked because you ask for a raise, etc.
    - doitLP 8y ago
      Seriously? I'm guessing you don't have children. Working to improve the life of your kids and grandkids is a real driver, and is the subject of the classic immigrant story for millions of people the world over. Police kill ~1000 people per year in the US and roughly half are white. While there is an inarguabale disparity there, that means your chances of getting shot by police are extremely, vanishingly rare. And the numbers killed each year is in steep decline. Let's abandon the fear mongering rhetoric of getting shot by police is any real threat. It makes good headlines but it's just not likely to happen to 99.9999% of people no matter their "shade of brown" as you say. There are more worker protections, more systemic empowerment of people in all classes, all genders, all faiths, all backgrounds than ever in history. There's a lot of work to be done and the system is by no means equal. Wealth disparity is real. But the fact is there's more learning resources available for free with which to bootstrap yourself than ever. As someone descended from hard working immigrants who valued education, and who is part of an incredibly racially diverse family, I don't think it's a crap deal at all.
    - daddyofive 8y ago
      I knew a girl from a bad part of la. She was Latino. One time she complained to me how the cops harass her friends when they walk around the neighborhood. I asked her what kind of clothes her friends wear, and she obviously replied that they wear saggy pants and black hoodies and so on. I said that if I were in their situation, I would dress in clothes that are impossible to get you mistaken for a drug dealer or a gang banger — simple jeans and a tucked in shirt with a collar. That would be my plan if I were in their situation and I wanted the cops to stop. She just scrunched her eyebrows and said that “we don’t have to change they way we dress!” Well you don’t have to go to college or start your own business or wear any clothes at all but unfortunately you are subject to the economy and the world and you can’t have a nice life and never do anything at all to deliberately secure that end. Sorry.
- will4274 8y ago
  > we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class. Could you point me to one? I've seen a number of studies on averages, and anecdotally, this contradicts my experience, so I'd be interested in whatever data you're referring to.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - bsder 8y ago
    Also talks about the issues of measuring inter-generational mobility ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the...
    - will4274 8y ago
      I looked through the article but couldn't find a study to back your claim. Can you please look link directly to a study that specifically looks at the most successful members of the underprivileged and compares them to the laziest members or the upper class? I know a good deal about social mobility and your claim reads like something somebody made up. Edit: in fact, the Wikipedia article directly contradicts your claim, saying "Looking at larger moves, only 4% of those raised in the bottom quintile moved up to the top quintile as adults. Around twice as many (8%) of children born into the top quintile fell to the bottom" - suggesting that the best of the underprivileged are far more successful than the laziest of the over-privileged.
      - bsder 8y ago
        I will try to find the actual study link. Percentages hides values: "However, because US income inequalities have increased substantially, the consequences of the "birth lottery" - the parents to whom a child is born - are larger today than in the past. US wealth is increasingly concentrated in the top 10% of American families, so children of the remaining 90% are more likely to be born at lower starting incomes today than the same children in the past. Even if they are equally mobile and climb the same distance up the US socioeconomic ladder as children born 25 years earlier, the bottom 90% of the ladder is worth less now, so they gain less income value from their climb ... especially when compared to the top 10%." And, those who fall from the top quintile are likely starting at the 80% point and not the 95% point.
blub 8y ago
What you've seen is irrelevant, when on the whole the lower and middle classes suffer due to lack of a social safety net and an extreme form of capitalism. There's a large amount of news articles which describe the situation of labour in the US. If things keep going like this, those millionares will soon have to build their own fortress cities to keep all the undesirable and disgruntled poor people away. The fact that poor people come to the US doesn't prove anything either, 99,(9)% of them will never be millionares, just like most people won't.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  I know people who profess to be victims, too. I'll tick off the choices they made that got them where they are. Of course, they get angry with me. Nobody wants to hear the truth. Where I am, the good and the bad, is nearly entirely the sum of my choices. For example, if you floss or not eventually has a large effect on your health. Ditto for the amount you choose to drink, smoke, and exercise. Where you choose to live, who you choose to marry, who you pick for friends, what you do with your free time, do you work to excel in school or do just enough to squeak by, what major do you select in college, it just goes on and on.
  - blub 8y ago
    When one US citizen can barely make ends meet, it's reasonable maybe to tell them to try harder. When millions can barely do it, the political and business classes fucked up and they need to fix it. That's the point of goverment, they can tackle systemic issues.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >I know people who profess to be victims, too. I'll tick off the choices they made that got them where they are. Of course, they get angry with me. Nobody wants to hear the truth. Who told you poor people are capable of as good choices as richer people? When you live life in easy mode is easy to make the right choices. It's also easy to see some people who managed to play in hard mode and win, and extrapolate to everybody (especially if you don't account for lucky breaks and mitigating factors in their course). But because a handful managed to win in hard mode, it doesn't make it as easy as those who play in easy mode, nor it makes it any more statistically possible for the masses to win the hard mode gameplay they were dealt. >Where I am, the good and the bad, is nearly entirely the sum of my choices. LOL. http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate (One is even tempted to wish upon people saying hat a couple some serious accident or decease that kills their savings or takes their job, or puts them into depression, or have them tend to another family member, and such, to see whether their tune will remain the same...)
coldtea 8y ago
>I've been around to see people over decades, and how their decisions affect their lives. Meritocracy is not a myth. Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. Choices is not the same as skills. Meritocracy is about merit, not choices.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  People choose to acquire skills, or not. It's the whole point of all the education available to Americans, most of it free. Choose it, or not. Heck, you can even get an MIT education for free over the internet. It's up to you.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >People choose to acquire skills, or not. >It's the whole point of all the education available to Americans, most of it free. Choose it, or not. Heck, you can even get an MIT education for free over the internet. It's up to you. It's only free if your time is worthless. Else you have opportunity costs. Which are not just monetary (e.g. needing to work long hours to put food on the table) but human too (e.g. tending to a sick relative or raising your kid). One could still study after his shift flipping burgers for their "MIT education for free over the internet". But they'd still be left without an actual MIT degree, and even following that free education will be much harder than the average HN commenter whose parents splurged for their education.
    - kamaal 8y ago
      >>It's only free if your time is worthless. If a person is poor, and they still think sparing an hour watching a Ivy League university lecture(that can vastly increase their opportunity range) isn't worth your time, they have far bigger problems related to entitlement. >>Else you have opportunity costs. And there they have a choice. Which opportunity is more important to one's life? >>and even following that free education will be much harder than the average HN commenter whose parents splurged for their education. There is often a huge space between Homelessness and being a billionaire. You can always start doing work that is better than flipping burgers. And I don't any one will contest the fact that it will take a person years before they reach 6 figure salaries. Again, even an entry level QA job could pay you better than flipping burger and you can work from there.
kart23 8y ago
That last point really hits home with me. Everyone keeps saying the american dream is bullshit, but I know many people who lived it, including my own parents. I know people that came here on a boat with nothing, and now living in 10 million dollar homes. America is the only country where one can experience both extremes in one lifetime.

bsder 8y ago

> Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. True. But we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class.

skookumchuck 8y ago
So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed?
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  This is the most ridiculous proof that America is the land of opportunity I can imagine. From https://www.wola.org/analysis/fact-sheet-united-states-immigration-central-american-asylum-seekers/ https://www.wola.org/analysis/fact-sheet-united-states-immig... "While the total number of migrants apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border is near its lowest level since the early 1970s, the number of apprehended unaccompanied children and families is again on the rise after a dramatic drop in the months following Trump’s inauguration. This is a vulnerable population who, for the most part, are deliberately seeking out U.S. border security authorities and asking for protection. Affirmative requests for asylum of individuals from Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras have increased by 25 percent in fiscal year 2017 compared to 2016. These people are fleeing for a reason. As White House Chief of Staff John Kelley once put it, the mass migration of children from Central America to the U.S.-Mexico border primarily consists of “[parents that] are trying to save their children.” The countries of El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras are facing unparalleled levels of violent crime, with El Salvador and Honduras ranking among the top five most violent countries in the world."
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    "The United States has been the top destination for international migrants since at least 1960, with one-fifth of the world's migrants living there as of 2017." That doesn't make much sense if the US is a hell-hole of capitalism grinding people into poverty (as immigrants usually have little). In 2016, 1.49 million immigrants came to the US. The median age is 44, so they're hardly all children. Meanwhile, an awful lot more want to come but can't get in legally. > This is the most ridiculous proof that America is the land of opportunity I can imagine. People run to opportunity, not away from it. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested...
    - michaelmrose 8y ago
      People aren't rational you can't prove anything about anything by supposing that people make sense. A lot of the planet is just terrible. Of the places that aren't terrible many wont let you just sneak in and make a living if you live a cash and carry lifestyle. At best you can prove that the US is viewed as better than their current abode by people that don't live here. This is the definition of damning with faint praise.
      - skookumchuck 8y ago
        If you actually believe that, it will be come a self-fulfilling prophecy for you. And that will be your choice, as the US is full of opportunity. For example, you can get an MIT education for free on youtube, you can open a business on github for free, you can get funding for free from kickstarter, you can advertise for free on reddit, you can reach a worldwide market for free via the internet, you can write and sell a book on Amazon for free, and on and on. Nobody needs to know your age, gender, ethnicity, religion, location, disability, marital status, etc. There's never been such opportunity, right here anywhere in America.
        michaelmrose 8y ago
        Nobody said there wasn't wealth and promise for many in America. If you remember the first comment you replied to. "But we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class." The entire point is that there is inequality of opportunity and unequal return on equal potential not that there isn't opportunity. If you recall the post I replied to you said "So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed?" This is terrible logic. This is a wealthy nation with lots to offer but people here have actual problems here too. You are glibly dismissing these actual problems with bad logic which personally makes me very angry. Who the heck are you. Imagine if someone was talking about how racism was still a problem in America and you piped in with how your black doctor friend's practice was doing great and people shouldn't let negatives become a self fulfilling prophesy. Well no shit but what we were actually talking about was inequality in America which we can actually do something about. From the individual's prospective whatever society does the individual ought to do the best they can and for many decent lives await in spite of challenges. From the perspective of society we ought to try to maximize everyone's chances as best we can.
- bsder 8y ago
  > So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed? My ancestors came here because life in the "Old Country" was so bad that braving the crossing of the Atlantic in cattle class on a ship, coming through Ellis Island, finding out that working in New York wasn't much better, and finally landing in the steel mills and coal mines of Western Pennsylvania was a step UP--but not by much. Those same ancestors also stood in front of bullets from Pinkertons because that was preferable to allowing their working conditions to continue. The fact that immigrants move is generally a sign of how shitty the place they are leaving is, not necessarily a sign of how good their destination is.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    And yet they still come to the US in great waves, 1.49 million a year, and many more try to get here.
burfog 8y ago
We have social mobility, not a social lottery. Moving all the way from the bottom to the top might take a couple generations, which will obviously involve needing to win at a fierce competition. That looks an awful lot like a meritocracy.
- blub 8y ago
  That sounds like a crap deal honestly. Come to the US, you'll probably still die poor, but at least maybe your grandchildren will do well. * * does not apply if you or your children get shot by the police for being the wrong shade of brown, maimed by unsafe working conditions associated with low-skilled labour, get sacked because you ask for a raise, etc.
  - doitLP 8y ago
    Seriously? I'm guessing you don't have children. Working to improve the life of your kids and grandkids is a real driver, and is the subject of the classic immigrant story for millions of people the world over. Police kill ~1000 people per year in the US and roughly half are white. While there is an inarguabale disparity there, that means your chances of getting shot by police are extremely, vanishingly rare. And the numbers killed each year is in steep decline. Let's abandon the fear mongering rhetoric of getting shot by police is any real threat. It makes good headlines but it's just not likely to happen to 99.9999% of people no matter their "shade of brown" as you say. There are more worker protections, more systemic empowerment of people in all classes, all genders, all faiths, all backgrounds than ever in history. There's a lot of work to be done and the system is by no means equal. Wealth disparity is real. But the fact is there's more learning resources available for free with which to bootstrap yourself than ever. As someone descended from hard working immigrants who valued education, and who is part of an incredibly racially diverse family, I don't think it's a crap deal at all.
  - daddyofive 8y ago
    I knew a girl from a bad part of la. She was Latino. One time she complained to me how the cops harass her friends when they walk around the neighborhood. I asked her what kind of clothes her friends wear, and she obviously replied that they wear saggy pants and black hoodies and so on. I said that if I were in their situation, I would dress in clothes that are impossible to get you mistaken for a drug dealer or a gang banger — simple jeans and a tucked in shirt with a collar. That would be my plan if I were in their situation and I wanted the cops to stop. She just scrunched her eyebrows and said that “we don’t have to change they way we dress!” Well you don’t have to go to college or start your own business or wear any clothes at all but unfortunately you are subject to the economy and the world and you can’t have a nice life and never do anything at all to deliberately secure that end. Sorry.
will4274 8y ago
> we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class. Could you point me to one? I've seen a number of studies on averages, and anecdotally, this contradicts my experience, so I'd be interested in whatever data you're referring to.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bsder 8y ago
  Also talks about the issues of measuring inter-generational mobility ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the...
  - will4274 8y ago
    I looked through the article but couldn't find a study to back your claim. Can you please look link directly to a study that specifically looks at the most successful members of the underprivileged and compares them to the laziest members or the upper class? I know a good deal about social mobility and your claim reads like something somebody made up. Edit: in fact, the Wikipedia article directly contradicts your claim, saying "Looking at larger moves, only 4% of those raised in the bottom quintile moved up to the top quintile as adults. Around twice as many (8%) of children born into the top quintile fell to the bottom" - suggesting that the best of the underprivileged are far more successful than the laziest of the over-privileged.
    - bsder 8y ago
      I will try to find the actual study link. Percentages hides values: "However, because US income inequalities have increased substantially, the consequences of the "birth lottery" - the parents to whom a child is born - are larger today than in the past. US wealth is increasingly concentrated in the top 10% of American families, so children of the remaining 90% are more likely to be born at lower starting incomes today than the same children in the past. Even if they are equally mobile and climb the same distance up the US socioeconomic ladder as children born 25 years earlier, the bottom 90% of the ladder is worth less now, so they gain less income value from their climb ... especially when compared to the top 10%." And, those who fall from the top quintile are likely starting at the 80% point and not the 95% point.

blub 8y ago

What you've seen is irrelevant, when on the whole the lower and middle classes suffer due to lack of a social safety net and an extreme form of capitalism. There's a large amount of news articles which describe the situation of labour in the US. If things keep going like this, those millionares will soon have to build their own fortress cities to keep all the undesirable and disgruntled poor people away. The fact that poor people come to the US doesn't prove anything either, 99,(9)% of them will never be millionares, just like most people won't.

skookumchuck 8y ago
I know people who profess to be victims, too. I'll tick off the choices they made that got them where they are. Of course, they get angry with me. Nobody wants to hear the truth. Where I am, the good and the bad, is nearly entirely the sum of my choices. For example, if you floss or not eventually has a large effect on your health. Ditto for the amount you choose to drink, smoke, and exercise. Where you choose to live, who you choose to marry, who you pick for friends, what you do with your free time, do you work to excel in school or do just enough to squeak by, what major do you select in college, it just goes on and on.
- blub 8y ago
  When one US citizen can barely make ends meet, it's reasonable maybe to tell them to try harder. When millions can barely do it, the political and business classes fucked up and they need to fix it. That's the point of goverment, they can tackle systemic issues.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >I know people who profess to be victims, too. I'll tick off the choices they made that got them where they are. Of course, they get angry with me. Nobody wants to hear the truth. Who told you poor people are capable of as good choices as richer people? When you live life in easy mode is easy to make the right choices. It's also easy to see some people who managed to play in hard mode and win, and extrapolate to everybody (especially if you don't account for lucky breaks and mitigating factors in their course). But because a handful managed to win in hard mode, it doesn't make it as easy as those who play in easy mode, nor it makes it any more statistically possible for the masses to win the hard mode gameplay they were dealt. >Where I am, the good and the bad, is nearly entirely the sum of my choices. LOL. http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate (One is even tempted to wish upon people saying hat a couple some serious accident or decease that kills their savings or takes their job, or puts them into depression, or have them tend to another family member, and such, to see whether their tune will remain the same...)

coldtea 8y ago

>I've been around to see people over decades, and how their decisions affect their lives. Meritocracy is not a myth. Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. Choices is not the same as skills. Meritocracy is about merit, not choices.

skookumchuck 8y ago
People choose to acquire skills, or not. It's the whole point of all the education available to Americans, most of it free. Choose it, or not. Heck, you can even get an MIT education for free over the internet. It's up to you.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >People choose to acquire skills, or not. >It's the whole point of all the education available to Americans, most of it free. Choose it, or not. Heck, you can even get an MIT education for free over the internet. It's up to you. It's only free if your time is worthless. Else you have opportunity costs. Which are not just monetary (e.g. needing to work long hours to put food on the table) but human too (e.g. tending to a sick relative or raising your kid). One could still study after his shift flipping burgers for their "MIT education for free over the internet". But they'd still be left without an actual MIT degree, and even following that free education will be much harder than the average HN commenter whose parents splurged for their education.
  - kamaal 8y ago
    >>It's only free if your time is worthless. If a person is poor, and they still think sparing an hour watching a Ivy League university lecture(that can vastly increase their opportunity range) isn't worth your time, they have far bigger problems related to entitlement. >>Else you have opportunity costs. And there they have a choice. Which opportunity is more important to one's life? >>and even following that free education will be much harder than the average HN commenter whose parents splurged for their education. There is often a huge space between Homelessness and being a billionaire. You can always start doing work that is better than flipping burgers. And I don't any one will contest the fact that it will take a person years before they reach 6 figure salaries. Again, even an entry level QA job could pay you better than flipping burger and you can work from there.

kart23 8y ago

That last point really hits home with me. Everyone keeps saying the american dream is bullshit, but I know many people who lived it, including my own parents. I know people that came here on a boat with nothing, and now living in 10 million dollar homes. America is the only country where one can experience both extremes in one lifetime.