6 ms·

Immune Cells Play Key Role in Determining Male or Female Traits in the Brain

69 points by laurex 8y ago

cperciva 8y ago
Does this mean that antihistamines could have an effect on brain development?
- neuroma 8y ago
  Yes, but you'd probably need to take them for long periods at high doses during crucial developmental stages, to provide continuous blockade of the system. Note also receptor specificity and blood brain barrier penetration of over-the-counter anti-histamines may lead to less-than-exciting results.
epx 8y ago
But wasn't that a social construction of the oppressive patriarchy?!
chacham15 8y ago
Could this play a role in causing Gender dysphoria?
- zaarn 8y ago
  Maybe. Maybe not. From what I read on the topic, it's much more complicated. People have plenty of typical-female or typical-male parts of brain slushed around, generally people tend to have the most of them that correspond to their gender (IIRC you can guess gender/sex correctly about 80 or 90% of the time by looking at the brain). It may contribute along with other factors for the cases where the brain does express gender dysphoria.
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    To grossly summarize a cocktail factoid - bird cells can individually differentiate, and some birds are truly half and half. Us mammals bombard our cells with hormones, constantly telling them how to differentiate, as though we were some sort of eusocial insect colony.
    - zaarn 8y ago
      Yes, other animals have found rather interesting ways to differentiate into genders, IIRC in some cases it's temperature, in others hormones, others do it genetically and I think in a few it's merely "how many females are in my group?", where gender can flip to benefit reproduction.
  - ashleyn 8y ago
    Gender dysphoria also isn't a clean distinction between "male" and "wanting to be female". The underlying phenomenon is observed to be rooted in sex-specific instincts and feelings inverse to what is normally found in people of the same sex. The interpretation is cultural. Indians believe it means there are two spirits in a single body, Mexicans have the "mux", and even in the west there's been tacit admission by some trans people that they feel different but couldn't tell you they were actually female...the oft-maligned "nonbinary". So really, I don't personally believe a brain can be cleanly male or cleanly female. Rather, if specific parts are formed differently than usual, then they respond differently to external stimuli. This can result in a wide range of sex-atypical behaviour ranging from mere homosexuality to finding one's genitals revolting. How you interpret that objective phenomenon is really up to the individual.
    - zaarn 8y ago
      I think the brains that are cleanly male-trait or female-trait are very very rare, most are a mix but there is usually enough difference to be able to make a very good guess. Though I also do agree that gender dysphoria can have many different expressions, once you drop gender you get into a whole new world of stuffs where people hate various things about themselves (I've met people with self-described "whole body dysphoria" who are generally okay with their gender and simply hate the physical existence of their body)
i_feel_great 8y ago
You know, sooner or later, someone will point to research like this and bring up something about homosexuality being a disease state.
- ggferghghff 8y ago
  Indeed, but you left your point unstated. What if homosexuality is a naturally occurring trait that arises more frequently in the presence of environmental pollutants (say endocrine disruptors or whatever causes allergies)? This is not implausible; in fact I’d be surprised if it weren’t probable (that enviromental pollutants affect human brain development and therefore sexuality) What are the consequences or the course of action -if any - that should be taken?
  - i_feel_great 8y ago
    Yes, I did leave out my point. I have come across this before when I was a biologist many years ago. Homosexuality does not look like a genetic trait. It looks remarkably like a disease state - even an infectious one at that. But the first and last time I discussed this with other biology students, the reaction was very bad. Research like this may get interpreted politically, and therefore ignored or even suppressed and the researchers lose credibility. I do not know what you would interpret as natural, but homosexuality is detrimental for the persistence of a species. It is entirely a dead-end. The correct action to be taken is to prevent and/or counter the agent that causes this.
    - sooheon 8y ago
      > homosexuality is detrimental for the persistence of a species. It is entirely a dead-end. How do you state this with such confidence? In an overpopulated world, homosexuality may be beneficial for the survival of our species. Homosexuals who do not reproduce potentially provide nanny-power to family units, or parenting power to orphans. It is in no way clear cut that "the correct action to be taken is to prevent and/or counter the agent that causes this." This is crazy talk.
- axlprose 8y ago
danieltillett 8y ago
There has always been some speculation that immunology plays a role in sexual traits given the fraternal birth order effect (i.e. a son is more likely to be homosexual the more older brothers he has) [0]. 0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28608293 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28608293
- appleflaxen 8y ago
  why would the presence of a fraternal birth order effect mean that it's immunological?
  - todd8 8y ago
    I assume that it would be the mother’s immune system (sensitized by previous pregnancies) response affecting the fetus while in utero.
  - dooglius 8y ago
    The paper explains, According to this maternal immune hypothesis, cells (or cell fragments) from male fetuses enter the maternal circulation during childbirth or perhaps earlier in pregnancy. These cells include substances that occur only on the surfaces of male cells, primarily male brain cells. The mother’s immune system recognizes these male-specific molecules as foreign and produces antibodies to them. When the mother later becomes pregnant with another male fetus, her antibodies cross the placental barrier and enter the fetal brain. Once in the brain, these antibodies bind to male-specific molecules on the surface of neurons. This prevents these neurons from‘‘wiring-up’’in the male-typical pattern, so that the individual will later be attracted to men rather than women.
  - danieltillett 8y ago
    It doesn't, but apart from this study the mothers's body is somehow able to remember how many sons she has had and influence the sexuality of her later sons. This memory of past exposure to a foreign object (i.e. a foetus) is the hallmark of immunology.
picsao 8y ago
>But wasn't that a social construction of the oppressive patriarchy?! According to the latest edition of : I_blame_everyone_but_myself It is. Of course those essays all sound like written by house elfes anyway, who want to solve every problem with a appeal to all wizards or further discussion. Good thing they prevent discussions about those deficits.. Imagine if somebody wrote a app to get around mental limitations instead. Long life the talking dead. More alive then the living when it comes to science.

69 points by laurex 8y ago

cperciva 8y ago

Does this mean that antihistamines could have an effect on brain development?

neuroma 8y ago
Yes, but you'd probably need to take them for long periods at high doses during crucial developmental stages, to provide continuous blockade of the system. Note also receptor specificity and blood brain barrier penetration of over-the-counter anti-histamines may lead to less-than-exciting results.

epx 8y ago

But wasn't that a social construction of the oppressive patriarchy?!

chacham15 8y ago

Could this play a role in causing Gender dysphoria?

zaarn 8y ago
Maybe. Maybe not. From what I read on the topic, it's much more complicated. People have plenty of typical-female or typical-male parts of brain slushed around, generally people tend to have the most of them that correspond to their gender (IIRC you can guess gender/sex correctly about 80 or 90% of the time by looking at the brain). It may contribute along with other factors for the cases where the brain does express gender dysphoria.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  To grossly summarize a cocktail factoid - bird cells can individually differentiate, and some birds are truly half and half. Us mammals bombard our cells with hormones, constantly telling them how to differentiate, as though we were some sort of eusocial insect colony.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    Yes, other animals have found rather interesting ways to differentiate into genders, IIRC in some cases it's temperature, in others hormones, others do it genetically and I think in a few it's merely "how many females are in my group?", where gender can flip to benefit reproduction.
- ashleyn 8y ago
  Gender dysphoria also isn't a clean distinction between "male" and "wanting to be female". The underlying phenomenon is observed to be rooted in sex-specific instincts and feelings inverse to what is normally found in people of the same sex. The interpretation is cultural. Indians believe it means there are two spirits in a single body, Mexicans have the "mux", and even in the west there's been tacit admission by some trans people that they feel different but couldn't tell you they were actually female...the oft-maligned "nonbinary". So really, I don't personally believe a brain can be cleanly male or cleanly female. Rather, if specific parts are formed differently than usual, then they respond differently to external stimuli. This can result in a wide range of sex-atypical behaviour ranging from mere homosexuality to finding one's genitals revolting. How you interpret that objective phenomenon is really up to the individual.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    I think the brains that are cleanly male-trait or female-trait are very very rare, most are a mix but there is usually enough difference to be able to make a very good guess. Though I also do agree that gender dysphoria can have many different expressions, once you drop gender you get into a whole new world of stuffs where people hate various things about themselves (I've met people with self-described "whole body dysphoria" who are generally okay with their gender and simply hate the physical existence of their body)

i_feel_great 8y ago

You know, sooner or later, someone will point to research like this and bring up something about homosexuality being a disease state.

ggferghghff 8y ago
Indeed, but you left your point unstated. What if homosexuality is a naturally occurring trait that arises more frequently in the presence of environmental pollutants (say endocrine disruptors or whatever causes allergies)? This is not implausible; in fact I’d be surprised if it weren’t probable (that enviromental pollutants affect human brain development and therefore sexuality) What are the consequences or the course of action -if any - that should be taken?
- i_feel_great 8y ago
  Yes, I did leave out my point. I have come across this before when I was a biologist many years ago. Homosexuality does not look like a genetic trait. It looks remarkably like a disease state - even an infectious one at that. But the first and last time I discussed this with other biology students, the reaction was very bad. Research like this may get interpreted politically, and therefore ignored or even suppressed and the researchers lose credibility. I do not know what you would interpret as natural, but homosexuality is detrimental for the persistence of a species. It is entirely a dead-end. The correct action to be taken is to prevent and/or counter the agent that causes this.
  - sooheon 8y ago
    > homosexuality is detrimental for the persistence of a species. It is entirely a dead-end. How do you state this with such confidence? In an overpopulated world, homosexuality may be beneficial for the survival of our species. Homosexuals who do not reproduce potentially provide nanny-power to family units, or parenting power to orphans. It is in no way clear cut that "the correct action to be taken is to prevent and/or counter the agent that causes this." This is crazy talk.
axlprose 8y ago

danieltillett 8y ago

There has always been some speculation that immunology plays a role in sexual traits given the fraternal birth order effect (i.e. a son is more likely to be homosexual the more older brothers he has) [0]. 0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28608293 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28608293

appleflaxen 8y ago
why would the presence of a fraternal birth order effect mean that it's immunological?
- todd8 8y ago
  I assume that it would be the mother’s immune system (sensitized by previous pregnancies) response affecting the fetus while in utero.
- dooglius 8y ago
  The paper explains, According to this maternal immune hypothesis, cells (or cell fragments) from male fetuses enter the maternal circulation during childbirth or perhaps earlier in pregnancy. These cells include substances that occur only on the surfaces of male cells, primarily male brain cells. The mother’s immune system recognizes these male-specific molecules as foreign and produces antibodies to them. When the mother later becomes pregnant with another male fetus, her antibodies cross the placental barrier and enter the fetal brain. Once in the brain, these antibodies bind to male-specific molecules on the surface of neurons. This prevents these neurons from‘‘wiring-up’’in the male-typical pattern, so that the individual will later be attracted to men rather than women.
- danieltillett 8y ago
  It doesn't, but apart from this study the mothers's body is somehow able to remember how many sons she has had and influence the sexuality of her later sons. This memory of past exposure to a foreign object (i.e. a foetus) is the hallmark of immunology.

picsao 8y ago

>But wasn't that a social construction of the oppressive patriarchy?! According to the latest edition of : I_blame_everyone_but_myself It is. Of course those essays all sound like written by house elfes anyway, who want to solve every problem with a appeal to all wizards or further discussion. Good thing they prevent discussions about those deficits.. Imagine if somebody wrote a app to get around mental limitations instead. Long life the talking dead. More alive then the living when it comes to science.