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I just do like the truckers do, leave it in second and crawl. It helps to not be concerned with maintaining a 6 inch gap with the car ahead. I truly believe th

I just do like the truckers do, leave it in second and crawl. It helps to not be concerned with maintaining a 6 inch gap with the car ahead. I truly believe that stop and go is caused by automatics. All of the brake tapping tends to bunch people up at the end of long lines forcing them to a complete stop. In a manual just let off on the gas a little and the engine brakes a little, no brake lights to create cascading braking

twblalock 8y ago
Stop and go traffic happens in countries where almost everyone drives a manual, so I doubt automatics are to blame.
developer2 8y ago
I don't know where you live that you can stay in 2nd and crawl. Where I live, the moment you leave a few inches between your front bumper and the car in front of you, someone is guaranteed to cut you off and force you to brake to prevent hitting them. When I say "inches", I mean inches - 6-8 inches of space is enough for someone to think "I'll just squeeze in here".
- brownbat 8y ago
  Hello New Jersey? :) I worry there's a sampling bias going on. When I commuted to work, I'd keep the same tight pattern everyone else used, and it felt like any time I let up, some jerk would take advantage. Then, for a while, I was suddenly paid to go between buildings on opposite sides of one of the worst traffic cities in the US. I always left with plenty of time and no urgency, so I would just stubbornly maintain plenty of stopping distance while everyone else was inches apart. Smoothing my braking pattern became a game. If you constantly leave that much room people weaving in becomes rare enough that you barely care when it happens. I feel like there's some bias affecting perception. Maybe it's a confound, or availability heuristic. Confound - if you're trying to hug a bumper, and suddenly there's a gap, maybe that's because your lane is suddenly moving faster and someone's taking advantage of that. If you always have space, you'll have it even when your lane is less attractive. (ie, The space doesn't make your lane attractive, the pace does.) Availability heuristic - if you care about people cutting you off and are adopting a strategy to prevent it, you will notice it more and put more weight on those occurrences than on all the seconds where no one is cutting you off. Before I had that job, I would have read this comment and thought it was nuts though, so not sure if anyone will actually believe me.
  - neuronexmachina 8y ago
    Are you already familiar with "traffic waves"? Your comment reminds me of it. http://trafficwaves.org/ http://trafficwaves.org/
  - MAGZine 8y ago
    FWIW when in traffic I always try to maintain enough distance ahead of me that I do not have to ever stop completely, and that I can also hopefully not use the brake. I swear I've watched traffic clear up around me. Of course it's anecdotal, but it tends to keep things moving, even if slowly, rather than bringing everything to a halt.
- closeparen 8y ago
  Do you never merge or change lanes in heavy traffic? Because if you’ve ever done any of those things, you rely on people leaving space and letting you in. Why deny others the same opportunities? Driving in traffic is a cooperative activity. The only times you don’t need to accommodate and be accommodated by other drivers are when there are hardly any around.
  - tjr225 8y ago
    I have a casual theory that driving in the US relies upon every individual enforcing their own idea of what the rules should be, inherent to our culture. I really enjoy driving in Europe, but maybe it's delusional. There's an aggressive indifference that I perceive. We should mostly be on bikes and scooters anyway.
    - vinay427 8y ago
      I have driven in both the US and a few European countries, and I would disagree with your proposed cause but agree somewhat with the effect. Having driven on long-distance road trips in the US, drivers are noticeably more competent than in (sub)urban highways, probably because the latter are filled with drivers who don't drive as much at those speeds. This is often inherently true in many western European countries in which driving usually has reasonable public transit alternatives so the selection of drivers on roads may tend to be more skilled and experienced. That being said, in some European cities drivers are not very keen to stop for pedestrians in crosswalks, even when pedestrians are already in the median "island." I haven't noticed any US city of a similar size that had drivers quite so negligent about crosswalks.
      - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
        In every US city I've ever spent time in, including San Francisco and Portland, you're taking your life into your own hands every time you use a crosswalk. Or even a sidewalk, as people will just turn into driveways without checking if the sidewalk is clear first.
- de_watcher 8y ago
  Isn't that against the regulations? We were taught that squeezing in is forbidden unless you're heading for an exit or something like that.
cheeze 8y ago
That works in many areas, but no chance anywhere which has much traffic.
freddie_mercury 8y ago
> I truly believe that stop and go is caused by automatics. A simple hypothesis like this is easy to test: does stop and go traffic exist in places that are predominantly manual transmissions? I live in Asia and I can tell you unequivocally that, yes, stop and go traffic still exists even when every single person has a manual transmission.
- fernandopj 8y ago
  Brazil is the same. New cars with automatic transmissions are now at least 40% of sales, but on the roads, manual must be still at least 80%, and 10 years ago it'd be virtually 100%. Stop and go exists here since always, Sao Paulo is a nightmare.
- draw_down 8y ago
  Yeah, that is a transparently silly argument GP made. It's just that weird self-righteousness people get about driving manual. They're sooo much more in tune with their cars, you know.
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  Italy has the same stop/go issue. Roundabouts are the main cause, with jammed zip merges coming in second. Both allow only a short burst of cars to pass when at full capacity, which backpropagates into the queue as multiple stop and go.
- mseidl 8y ago
  It has been proven that one person over braking when there was no need can cause a traffic jam for hours.
  - _fizz_buzz_ 8y ago
    But it hasn't been proven that this happens more with automatic transmissions.
    - tomohawk 8y ago
hateful 8y ago
Keep in mind that slightly depressing your brake pedal without pushing it down turns your brake lights on but you do not actually brake. This is used to warn cars behind you of possible danger ahead.
- tudelo 8y ago
  It really depends on your car. A lot of cars have a little give in the brake light sensor...
tlrobinson 8y ago
> I truly believe that stop and go is caused by automatics. If that’s the case then it should eventually be solved by a critical mass of vehicles with adaptive cruise control (assuming they optimize for fuel efficiency and/or smooth acceleration/braking)
another-cuppa 8y ago
Second in a car is optimistic. I often have to put it in first and just let the engine tick over. Some people don't think their car can do this. I'm not sure if that's true or if they are just bad drivers, though. My car will happily roll in third if it's flat. I find I'm usually able to keep rolling in gear, which doesn't use any more fuel than just idling, and not apply the brakes in most "stop and go" traffic.
- mwaitjmp 8y ago
  This is what I usually try and do when stuck in a queue, especially on the motorway. First or second depending on the speed of the traffic, clutch up, foot off accelerator. Pointless racing to the stopped car in front of you only to have to stop and start again.
- petre 8y ago
  My car does it but it's a small diesel 4x4 with gearbox optimized for lower speeds. It happily rolls in the first on low slopes. I have yet to try this with a normal petrol engine car. I have to leave some free space in front of my car and sometimes aggresive drivers from neighbouring lanes will annoyingly slip into that space without signaling, causing a stop on my side.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    Yeah, especially not-ancient-TDIs with low and high idle (~800 and ~1100 rpm, out of and in gear, respectively) put out a surprising amount of torque without hitting the gas.
ygra 8y ago
> just let off on the gas a little and the engine brakes a little, no brake lights to create cascading braking Same thing with an automatic transmission. With DSG it's obvious why, but even with a torque converter you tend to have a clutch that locks up once there's no need for slip to improve efficiency.
zaarn 8y ago
Stop and Go is caused by trying to maintain a constant distance to the front car but isn't caused by automatics, people with stick behave the same. The simple solution is to behave like an inductor in electronics; if the front car starts, take a bit of time to get going and don't try to maintain the gap. That way you average out the speed of the stop-and-go traffic more than if you were maintaining distance. It might help to think of stop-and-go as a wave of stop-traffic through go-traffic where the reaction time of drivers shortens or lengthens the stop-traffic duty cycle. If a driver maintains enough distance to eat an entire stop-cycle without stopping themselves, they have effectively nullified the stop-wave. If they can't do the entire cycle they can still help in reducing the duty cycle of the stop wave.
Yizahi 8y ago
Traffic is not when you can constantly drive on second. Traffic is when you stall even on first, every damn day.
johnvanommen 8y ago
Interesting point. I definitely notice that I 'coast' more in a manual.
- ddingus 8y ago
  My current car allows for a quick click to neutral, and will drop right back into drive gear. I coast nearly as much with it as I did using a manual.
9wzYQbTYsAIc 8y ago
Isn’t it still true that an AT will have a no-pedal-applied speed of > 0 mph, whereas an MT will have a no-pedal-applied speed of 0? (Assuming flat surface and MT in neutral or assuming MT stalls engine in-gear)
cjsawyer 8y ago
What? Stop and go exits because cars brake faster than they accelerate and humans have non-zero reaction time. The average velocity tends to zero until the number of cars on the road is few enough that those factors are less meaningful than the speed limit.

twblalock 8y ago

Stop and go traffic happens in countries where almost everyone drives a manual, so I doubt automatics are to blame.

developer2 8y ago

I don't know where you live that you can stay in 2nd and crawl. Where I live, the moment you leave a few inches between your front bumper and the car in front of you, someone is guaranteed to cut you off and force you to brake to prevent hitting them. When I say "inches", I mean inches - 6-8 inches of space is enough for someone to think "I'll just squeeze in here".

brownbat 8y ago
Hello New Jersey? :) I worry there's a sampling bias going on. When I commuted to work, I'd keep the same tight pattern everyone else used, and it felt like any time I let up, some jerk would take advantage. Then, for a while, I was suddenly paid to go between buildings on opposite sides of one of the worst traffic cities in the US. I always left with plenty of time and no urgency, so I would just stubbornly maintain plenty of stopping distance while everyone else was inches apart. Smoothing my braking pattern became a game. If you constantly leave that much room people weaving in becomes rare enough that you barely care when it happens. I feel like there's some bias affecting perception. Maybe it's a confound, or availability heuristic. Confound - if you're trying to hug a bumper, and suddenly there's a gap, maybe that's because your lane is suddenly moving faster and someone's taking advantage of that. If you always have space, you'll have it even when your lane is less attractive. (ie, The space doesn't make your lane attractive, the pace does.) Availability heuristic - if you care about people cutting you off and are adopting a strategy to prevent it, you will notice it more and put more weight on those occurrences than on all the seconds where no one is cutting you off. Before I had that job, I would have read this comment and thought it was nuts though, so not sure if anyone will actually believe me.
- neuronexmachina 8y ago
  Are you already familiar with "traffic waves"? Your comment reminds me of it. http://trafficwaves.org/ http://trafficwaves.org/
- MAGZine 8y ago
  FWIW when in traffic I always try to maintain enough distance ahead of me that I do not have to ever stop completely, and that I can also hopefully not use the brake. I swear I've watched traffic clear up around me. Of course it's anecdotal, but it tends to keep things moving, even if slowly, rather than bringing everything to a halt.
closeparen 8y ago
Do you never merge or change lanes in heavy traffic? Because if you’ve ever done any of those things, you rely on people leaving space and letting you in. Why deny others the same opportunities? Driving in traffic is a cooperative activity. The only times you don’t need to accommodate and be accommodated by other drivers are when there are hardly any around.
- tjr225 8y ago
  I have a casual theory that driving in the US relies upon every individual enforcing their own idea of what the rules should be, inherent to our culture. I really enjoy driving in Europe, but maybe it's delusional. There's an aggressive indifference that I perceive. We should mostly be on bikes and scooters anyway.
  - vinay427 8y ago
    I have driven in both the US and a few European countries, and I would disagree with your proposed cause but agree somewhat with the effect. Having driven on long-distance road trips in the US, drivers are noticeably more competent than in (sub)urban highways, probably because the latter are filled with drivers who don't drive as much at those speeds. This is often inherently true in many western European countries in which driving usually has reasonable public transit alternatives so the selection of drivers on roads may tend to be more skilled and experienced. That being said, in some European cities drivers are not very keen to stop for pedestrians in crosswalks, even when pedestrians are already in the median "island." I haven't noticed any US city of a similar size that had drivers quite so negligent about crosswalks.
    - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
      In every US city I've ever spent time in, including San Francisco and Portland, you're taking your life into your own hands every time you use a crosswalk. Or even a sidewalk, as people will just turn into driveways without checking if the sidewalk is clear first.
de_watcher 8y ago
Isn't that against the regulations? We were taught that squeezing in is forbidden unless you're heading for an exit or something like that.

cheeze 8y ago

That works in many areas, but no chance anywhere which has much traffic.

freddie_mercury 8y ago

> I truly believe that stop and go is caused by automatics. A simple hypothesis like this is easy to test: does stop and go traffic exist in places that are predominantly manual transmissions? I live in Asia and I can tell you unequivocally that, yes, stop and go traffic still exists even when every single person has a manual transmission.

fernandopj 8y ago
Brazil is the same. New cars with automatic transmissions are now at least 40% of sales, but on the roads, manual must be still at least 80%, and 10 years ago it'd be virtually 100%. Stop and go exists here since always, Sao Paulo is a nightmare.
draw_down 8y ago
Yeah, that is a transparently silly argument GP made. It's just that weird self-righteousness people get about driving manual. They're sooo much more in tune with their cars, you know.
LoSboccacc 8y ago
Italy has the same stop/go issue. Roundabouts are the main cause, with jammed zip merges coming in second. Both allow only a short burst of cars to pass when at full capacity, which backpropagates into the queue as multiple stop and go.
mseidl 8y ago
It has been proven that one person over braking when there was no need can cause a traffic jam for hours.
- _fizz_buzz_ 8y ago
  But it hasn't been proven that this happens more with automatic transmissions.
  - tomohawk 8y ago

hateful 8y ago

Keep in mind that slightly depressing your brake pedal without pushing it down turns your brake lights on but you do not actually brake. This is used to warn cars behind you of possible danger ahead.

tudelo 8y ago
It really depends on your car. A lot of cars have a little give in the brake light sensor...

tlrobinson 8y ago

> I truly believe that stop and go is caused by automatics. If that’s the case then it should eventually be solved by a critical mass of vehicles with adaptive cruise control (assuming they optimize for fuel efficiency and/or smooth acceleration/braking)

another-cuppa 8y ago

Second in a car is optimistic. I often have to put it in first and just let the engine tick over. Some people don't think their car can do this. I'm not sure if that's true or if they are just bad drivers, though. My car will happily roll in third if it's flat. I find I'm usually able to keep rolling in gear, which doesn't use any more fuel than just idling, and not apply the brakes in most "stop and go" traffic.

mwaitjmp 8y ago
This is what I usually try and do when stuck in a queue, especially on the motorway. First or second depending on the speed of the traffic, clutch up, foot off accelerator. Pointless racing to the stopped car in front of you only to have to stop and start again.
petre 8y ago
My car does it but it's a small diesel 4x4 with gearbox optimized for lower speeds. It happily rolls in the first on low slopes. I have yet to try this with a normal petrol engine car. I have to leave some free space in front of my car and sometimes aggresive drivers from neighbouring lanes will annoyingly slip into that space without signaling, causing a stop on my side.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  Yeah, especially not-ancient-TDIs with low and high idle (~800 and ~1100 rpm, out of and in gear, respectively) put out a surprising amount of torque without hitting the gas.

ygra 8y ago

> just let off on the gas a little and the engine brakes a little, no brake lights to create cascading braking Same thing with an automatic transmission. With DSG it's obvious why, but even with a torque converter you tend to have a clutch that locks up once there's no need for slip to improve efficiency.

zaarn 8y ago

Stop and Go is caused by trying to maintain a constant distance to the front car but isn't caused by automatics, people with stick behave the same. The simple solution is to behave like an inductor in electronics; if the front car starts, take a bit of time to get going and don't try to maintain the gap. That way you average out the speed of the stop-and-go traffic more than if you were maintaining distance. It might help to think of stop-and-go as a wave of stop-traffic through go-traffic where the reaction time of drivers shortens or lengthens the stop-traffic duty cycle. If a driver maintains enough distance to eat an entire stop-cycle without stopping themselves, they have effectively nullified the stop-wave. If they can't do the entire cycle they can still help in reducing the duty cycle of the stop wave.

Yizahi 8y ago

Traffic is not when you can constantly drive on second. Traffic is when you stall even on first, every damn day.

johnvanommen 8y ago

Interesting point. I definitely notice that I 'coast' more in a manual.

ddingus 8y ago
My current car allows for a quick click to neutral, and will drop right back into drive gear. I coast nearly as much with it as I did using a manual.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 8y ago

Isn’t it still true that an AT will have a no-pedal-applied speed of > 0 mph, whereas an MT will have a no-pedal-applied speed of 0? (Assuming flat surface and MT in neutral or assuming MT stalls engine in-gear)

cjsawyer 8y ago

What? Stop and go exits because cars brake faster than they accelerate and humans have non-zero reaction time. The average velocity tends to zero until the number of cars on the road is few enough that those factors are less meaningful than the speed limit.