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> But what do we do? […] We do not merely do nothing to get rid of the conditions in which such people are born – we actually encourage the institutions which p

> But what do we do? […] We do not merely do nothing to get rid of the conditions in which such people are born – we actually encourage the institutions which produce them. We all know what these institutions are: the mills, the factories, the workshops, the inns, the pot-houses, the brothels. And far from wiping out establishments of this sort – considering them necessary, we encourage and regulate them. Would the world really have less crime if we didn't have factories and inns? Agrarianism is so alien to modern life I can hardly imagine it being a dominant philosophy.

lixtra 8y ago
My understanding of the US prisons was that many people with mental issues end up there instead of proper mental health care [1]. I can imagine that people with mental issues are also more likely to end up in inns and brothels. These people remain problematic after closing those locations. Even more so with factories as you already pointed out. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201303/prison-or-treatment-the-mentally-ill https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201303...
- brownbat 8y ago
  We had a case once where a guy kept breaking into a local business. Didn't take anything, just broke the door or a window and picked things up and moved them around a bit then left. Did it repeatedly despite a series of warnings and discussions. Guy was not malicious, just not mentally healthy. Doing nothing meant the business would continue to get harassed. Judge and prosecutor and defense attorney had a long conference about how none of the options available were any good. Mental health courts are one approach being tried out in a few jurisdictions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_health_court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_health_court Basically like a plea agreement with conditions to enter into a community based support program or some kind of treatment program. They aren't without criticisms, but they provide a tool to deal with these messed up situations the criminal justice constantly gets stuck with.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    So what was the end result? Did they send the guy to prison or try and get him the help he needed?
    - brownbat 8y ago
      They had no authority to compel treatment. I think they used the minimum sentence then worked to set up a mental health court for future cases.
- badrabbit 8y ago
  What mental issue specifically? Example, Childhood mental trauma caused psychological issues that made the convict a violent criminal,would that be better dealt with by a psychiatrist than prison? Probably,but the purpose of prison isn't correction. Correction is a desired end goal,but regardless of correction,prison is punishment for a person that broke the rules defined by society. The line is drawn somewhat clearly: if you are able to understand the ruled and apply reason to your decisions,you are held responsible for the consequence. IMO, free psychotherapy in prisons and getting rid of private prisons is a good idea. There is too much of "this is how we've always done it". I am also more concerned about the 90something% of cases that end up in a conviction due to plea bargaining. No due process. Tons of possibly innocent people admit guilt to avoid having their day in court. Risk getting a false conviction and serve 10yrs or plea bargain and get just a year,what poor person would take that risk if you can't afford a good lawyer?
freshhawk 8y ago
The factories and inns you are thinking of are quite different from the ones Tolstoy was talking about.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

lixtra 8y ago

My understanding of the US prisons was that many people with mental issues end up there instead of proper mental health care [1]. I can imagine that people with mental issues are also more likely to end up in inns and brothels. These people remain problematic after closing those locations. Even more so with factories as you already pointed out. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201303/prison-or-treatment-the-mentally-ill https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201303...

brownbat 8y ago
We had a case once where a guy kept breaking into a local business. Didn't take anything, just broke the door or a window and picked things up and moved them around a bit then left. Did it repeatedly despite a series of warnings and discussions. Guy was not malicious, just not mentally healthy. Doing nothing meant the business would continue to get harassed. Judge and prosecutor and defense attorney had a long conference about how none of the options available were any good. Mental health courts are one approach being tried out in a few jurisdictions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_health_court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_health_court Basically like a plea agreement with conditions to enter into a community based support program or some kind of treatment program. They aren't without criticisms, but they provide a tool to deal with these messed up situations the criminal justice constantly gets stuck with.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  So what was the end result? Did they send the guy to prison or try and get him the help he needed?
  - brownbat 8y ago
    They had no authority to compel treatment. I think they used the minimum sentence then worked to set up a mental health court for future cases.
badrabbit 8y ago
What mental issue specifically? Example, Childhood mental trauma caused psychological issues that made the convict a violent criminal,would that be better dealt with by a psychiatrist than prison? Probably,but the purpose of prison isn't correction. Correction is a desired end goal,but regardless of correction,prison is punishment for a person that broke the rules defined by society. The line is drawn somewhat clearly: if you are able to understand the ruled and apply reason to your decisions,you are held responsible for the consequence. IMO, free psychotherapy in prisons and getting rid of private prisons is a good idea. There is too much of "this is how we've always done it". I am also more concerned about the 90something% of cases that end up in a conviction due to plea bargaining. No due process. Tons of possibly innocent people admit guilt to avoid having their day in court. Risk getting a false conviction and serve 10yrs or plea bargain and get just a year,what poor person would take that risk if you can't afford a good lawyer?

freshhawk 8y ago

The factories and inns you are thinking of are quite different from the ones Tolstoy was talking about.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]