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That list of 'male programmer privileges' is unhelpful, and not better than a sexist 'ha ha, only serious', for two reasons. Firstly, it depends entirely on the

That list of 'male programmer privileges' is unhelpful, and not better than a sexist 'ha ha, only serious', for two reasons. Firstly, it depends entirely on the idea that the only difference between people is whether they are male or female and that only females stand out. Secondly, it suggests this is a problem we (HN programmers or some other applicable group) can and should solve. I'll criticise a few: 1. Not having to wonder whether you're well-known in your community simply for being "the female one". Because the gay, black and scarred guy don't have that problem. Half of the people are known as "the ... one". 4. Joining in appreciation of the sex object du jour without having to be gay or bisexual. Denying that women do the exact same thing. They also gossip about, and drool over, the celebrity hotshot of the day. 6. Never being asked by a job interviewer whether you would mind being the first male employee in the company Because asking someone whether they mind being the first sysadmin, non-programmer or employee, period, isn't a normal thing? Because we acknowledge that, you know, there actually is a difference that tends to cause the kind of issues we are dealing with right now and you may want to say something about it? 10. Attending job fairs without having anyone suggest you look for secretarial work instead I refer you to the 'male nurse' list. This problem is not restricted to your sex and occupation. We deal with the exact same problem. These kinds of lists make me think: stop whining and start trying to change something. You're not succeeding at that by making a list of how bad you have it, completely disregarding that the lives of other people aren't easy either, for scores of other reasons. It's reducing problems to something simpler than they are and expecting others to be suddenly enlightened by the obvious simple truth and changing things. It's barking up the wrong tree.

commanda 16y ago
Here's a discrepancy. You said: "it suggests this is a problem we (HN programmers or some other applicable group) can and should solve." But then you said: "stop whining and start trying to change something." This list is absolutely on the right path - by recognizing and bringing attention to a list of privileges that male programmers might not have thought of, this list (and the people behind it, following in the footsteps of many other feminist/egalitarian privilege lists that have been created), they are doing something about the problem. Raising awareness is action - arguably the most important action in ameliorating sexism in this space.
- sqrt17 16y ago
  Calling weirdnesses and idiocy "privileges" is exactly that: asserting that females are disprivileged and putting the blame on males as a whole. This may be feminist (for some value of feminist), but it's hardly egalitarian -- if you wanted that, you'd need a list of female privileges. The grandparent poster was making the point that XYZ-ism (including sexism) frequently occurs as a byproduct of someone being in a rare minority (including males in a primarily female domain). And it should be everyone's duty to put an end to the behavior that leads to this, instead of standing on a cloud of feminist delusions of superiority. FWIW, Aimonetti (deservedly) got called out by both male and female colleagues, as well as the conference organizers, because his slides were just oozing bad taste and douchebaggery. If there's anything to be learned here, it would be Renae Bair's example on how to get the inclusive mood that he tried to get, without being exclusive against anyone. http://www.renaebair.com/2009/04/27/perform-like-a-frag-star/ http://www.renaebair.com/2009/04/27/perform-like-a-frag-star... (Because, not only is Bair's proposal much cooler, but also, for some reason, pacifists can look at a BFG9000 - especially a BFG9000-wielding Tux - without getting worked up about it and delivering the standard speech about all weapons being tools of killing and mutilation. I object to weapons being seen as anything else but killing and mutilation tools, and have strong contempt if Elsevier as a scientific publisher has a subsidiary that organizes arms fairs, but I can walk around without forcing the topic on anyone).
  - commanda 16y ago
    Pointing out privileges that a group experiences does not mean putting the blame on that group. The purpose of this kind of list is to bring awareness of privilege, not to place blame. How can a person work to eliminate XYZ-ism if they are not aware of how it happens? Most the points on the list have a subtlety, I think, and are non-obvious. They all require imagining yourself in the marginalized minority's shoes. They aren't the glaringly obvious examples of sexism that (really infrequently) happen, like Aimonetti's slides. That's where the real work can be done, because eliminating obvious sexism is the easy part.

commanda 16y ago

Here's a discrepancy. You said: "it suggests this is a problem we (HN programmers or some other applicable group) can and should solve." But then you said: "stop whining and start trying to change something." This list is absolutely on the right path - by recognizing and bringing attention to a list of privileges that male programmers might not have thought of, this list (and the people behind it, following in the footsteps of many other feminist/egalitarian privilege lists that have been created), they are doing something about the problem. Raising awareness is action - arguably the most important action in ameliorating sexism in this space.

sqrt17 16y ago
Calling weirdnesses and idiocy "privileges" is exactly that: asserting that females are disprivileged and putting the blame on males as a whole. This may be feminist (for some value of feminist), but it's hardly egalitarian -- if you wanted that, you'd need a list of female privileges. The grandparent poster was making the point that XYZ-ism (including sexism) frequently occurs as a byproduct of someone being in a rare minority (including males in a primarily female domain). And it should be everyone's duty to put an end to the behavior that leads to this, instead of standing on a cloud of feminist delusions of superiority. FWIW, Aimonetti (deservedly) got called out by both male and female colleagues, as well as the conference organizers, because his slides were just oozing bad taste and douchebaggery. If there's anything to be learned here, it would be Renae Bair's example on how to get the inclusive mood that he tried to get, without being exclusive against anyone. http://www.renaebair.com/2009/04/27/perform-like-a-frag-star/ http://www.renaebair.com/2009/04/27/perform-like-a-frag-star... (Because, not only is Bair's proposal much cooler, but also, for some reason, pacifists can look at a BFG9000 - especially a BFG9000-wielding Tux - without getting worked up about it and delivering the standard speech about all weapons being tools of killing and mutilation. I object to weapons being seen as anything else but killing and mutilation tools, and have strong contempt if Elsevier as a scientific publisher has a subsidiary that organizes arms fairs, but I can walk around without forcing the topic on anyone).
- commanda 16y ago
  Pointing out privileges that a group experiences does not mean putting the blame on that group. The purpose of this kind of list is to bring awareness of privilege, not to place blame. How can a person work to eliminate XYZ-ism if they are not aware of how it happens? Most the points on the list have a subtlety, I think, and are non-obvious. They all require imagining yourself in the marginalized minority's shoes. They aren't the glaringly obvious examples of sexism that (really infrequently) happen, like Aimonetti's slides. That's where the real work can be done, because eliminating obvious sexism is the easy part.