10 ms·

Switzerland: Welcome to the Drone Valley

164 points by imartin2k 8y ago

mrlaserOO 8y ago
Hmm... all small scale projects. Point to point Drone delivery as killer application is still not possible in Switzerland. Need special permission for each flight/route.
- ThePadawan 8y ago
  If you're thinking of an Amazon type delivery (and not, let's say delivery of industrial goods, medicine, ...), the audience would not be there anyway. Notably, major online retailers trialed same-day delivery (usually via bike messenger) within major urban regions (e.g. Zurich) for a moderate charge. Customers generally agreed that it was a great option, but no one used it, so it got canned.
zavi 8y ago
A quick look at the market share numbers instantly renders this article false.
KirinDave 8y ago
Slightly off topic, but I just wanted to point out that this technology they're working on is largely within reach of you as a hobbyist today. What's impressive is the engineering resources and software control systems they're adding. But for less than $300, you can build a small 6" quadcopter from base parts, purchase a small control radio, and a pair of inexpensive FPV goggles+transmitter+receiver. Yeah, less than $300. China's amazing at this. If you get a permit for it in the US (or ignore the law), $50 more gets you radios with miles of range. Your primary limit will be batteries (solutions exist, but bust the budget a bit, fixed wing drones are a lot of more economical here). But there is nothing magical or special about Switzerland other than a concentration of interest. If you wanted, you could start competing with these folks and stand up in front of a shady incubator looking for your economic kickstart really, really fast. You don't need to fabricate parts to build prototypes and most of this stuff is mass produced.
- polskibus 8y ago
  What parts would you recommend to build a drone that's on par with mavic air ( incl. Gimbal)?
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    I'd recommend going to the youtube Channels Rotor Riot and UAV Futures (and possibly Mr. Steele) if you want to get a nice series of well-sourced introductory materials by veteran professional drone operators. I'm by far an amateur, and don't really have enough sim hours to fly the drone I'm just about done assembling. But: the aerial camera gimbal is by far the hardest part to get right, and why vendors like DJI charge what they charge. Software exists to make it work, though.
  - natvert 8y ago
    If you want a mavic, just buy a mavic, building something with this level quality / reliability is not worth the effort. The advantage to building your own is that you get a different type of quad -- a racing quad which feels more like flying a porsche (feels like a race car) than an mini-van (e.g. mavic, reliable but super fun to fly). If you want to build a racer, rctimer has some of the best kits (high quality parts, well thought out design). Here's an old build guide from my blog, you would want to get a newer kit with an omnibus-based flight controller, but the idea is the same: https://nathan.vertile.com/blog/2016/04/24/rctimer-u210-mini-quad-build-setup-and-review/ https://nathan.vertile.com/blog/2016/04/24/rctimer-u210-mini... Also, if you're just learning to fly, you probably want to learn acro/rate mode (which is full manual mode) on something smaller first, like this maybe: https://nathan.vertile.com/blog/2017/03/31/betaflight-micro-brushless-aurora-100/ https://nathan.vertile.com/blog/2017/03/31/betaflight-micro-...
- mc32 8y ago
  Do you know off hand if the toy copter cos are looking to take advantage of the affordability of this kind of tech, or are thry just too old fashioned to care?
  - KirinDave 8y ago
monksy 8y ago
This message was brought to you by the Switzerland Tourism Bureau. See our beautiful land via drone footage.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  Bureau, like bureaucrat, bureaucratic, or bureaucracy.
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    Or the thing you keep your drawers in
  - kenneth 8y ago
    Could be the German Büro
    - monksy 8y ago
      That's what I was thinking of when I wrote out buro.
natvert 8y ago
Also, for folks interested in general "drone" (aka research/commercialized/militarized robotics) news, the http://dronecenter.bard.edu/ http://dronecenter.bard.edu/ newsletter provides fantastic weekly coverage.
sandworm101 8y ago
They have to work out the air traffic issues. I work for an organization that does mountain flying in SAR scenarios (airforce, helicopters). We can be re-tasked mid-air to a SAR scenario at any time. We need to know within minutes, seconds, that the low level airspace is clear for us to operate. Can these drones avoid large helicopters on their own, or do we need some system to ground them all automatically? This matters for us in particular because SAR can happen literally anywhere, not just in restricted airspace around cities or airports. We really do operate at less that 100 feet. We have landed in hospital parking lots. No notice on the ground. Just suddenly a huge helicopter is parking itself beside all the SUVs. That's what emergency means. So a large number of metal drones is a real safety issue.
- poof131 8y ago
  This is a very valid use case and something any UTM solution will have to solve. Currently the industry is hoping the FAA will create an uber solution and avoid “patchwork” solutions with state and local involvement, but that will never scale. Local administrators will need to be able to geofence areas in realtime. This will happen but it will take time to roll out and will require local, state, and federal involvement in a manner similar to auto transportation but with some unique aviation aspects.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    >> require local, state, and federal involvement in a manner similar to auto transportation Or, we can do it in a manner similar to aviation. State and local governments have no say. FAA rules govern aviation, with preemption making sure those rules are not complicated by local authorities. Our helicopters cover a huge area during normal operations. During cross-country transfers to things like airshows they operate across the entire continent. Local, even state, rules won't be welcome. It all has to come from the FAA.
    - poof131 8y ago
      Don’t believe an solution based purely on current aviation rules will work for the scale drones will operate at. Firmly convinced that the 200-400’ feet will more closely resemble class-A airspace than class-G and will involve local. Rules will be standardized by the FAA but the administration will have to involve local and they will have a say in restricted airspace, routes, etc. A VFR free-for-all with drones will be a mid-air nightmare and no magical UTM solution will solve it. Don’t disagree that the FAA has preemption, but the current aviation model won’t work in the future and the FAA knows this. They are pushing for more local involvement and it seems to primarily be industry pushing back. Additionally, it isn’t settled law where property rights end. Causby said 87 feet for sure but possibly higher. [1] Still a lot to be worked out how drones will integrate in the national airspace. https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/328us256 https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/328us256
kozikow 8y ago
Having spent some time on business applications of drones, especially imagery, I am actually quite bearish on startup application of drones. Even if there are some locations that accept innovative experimentation with drones (e.g. Switzerland or Japan), the majority of countries (e.g. the USA with part 107) are quite restrictive. Because of severe restriction on autonomy, all large-scale applications are not legal. Not many people are investing time and money into building new drone applications, as it's uncertain it will be legal in the near future. Without serious $ behind it, drone regulations will probably stay restrictive. If you are thinking about Amazon - I heard from multiple people that last-mile delivery is actually more feasible with ground robots.
- jillesvangurp 8y ago
  This will start changing as technology improves. Specifically it will change as applications emerge where these things provide a concrete economic benefits that offset the risk. Basically when that happens, money starts flowing to regions where the legislation is more favorable and more innovation happens. At some point there's a tipping point and legislation adapts due to pressure of local parties missing out. E.g. the agricultural sector in the US has enormous power on this front. They already use lots of drones as well as e.g. helicopters to dry cherry trees, crop dusting planes, etc. That business is quite expensive and an obvious target for replacement by drones. When technology gets to the point where legislation is the only real obstacle, there will be lots of pressure for legislation to change. I'd say that's a question of when not if. What will need to happen on the safety front is for drones to play nice with regulated airspace and controllers/pilots in the area. Mostly drones currently don't have stuff like ADS-B or transponders on board. Given how cheap and light stuff like that is getting, I think it's a matter of time before there will be some drone specific versions of that that allow controllers to monitor any drone activity in their area. I imagine stuff like that won't be optional for any commercial operations. Mostly drones are a danger only because they stray in the path of other planes. If there's collision warnings, controller advisories, etc. things get a lot safer.
  - kozikow 8y ago
    > E.g. the agricultural sector in the US has enormous power on this front. They already use lots of drones as well as e.g. helicopters to dry cherry trees, crop dusting planes, etc. There is a bit of a chicken and egg problem here. As long as there is a restriction of a single drone per pilot, using airplanes and helicopters tends to be cheaper for most use cases.
mirekrusin 8y ago
Interesting to see this on front hn, today I’ve packed everything in London and left for Lausanne, arrived few minutes ago with family. Although innovation activity wasn’t the reason we’ve moved here, it’s very interesting to hear stories like this, there seems to be something good happening with research, gov backing etc. I’ve noticed some good research in areas like cryptography (zero knowledge proofs), formal proofs and now robotics/drones; I know government is also running couple of projects backed by blockchain, quite open minded, not seen much of this kind of interest from other European governments (except Estonia maybe).
s3nnyy 8y ago
Wingtra, the firm in the article with the helicopter/airplane-like drone really made some headlines in local newspapers and rocked some prestigious startup rankings. Switzerland is clearly a startup hub for B2B companies and high/deep tech. I guess, with only 8 million citizens, we can't go B2C and don't have any chance to compete internationally other than "improving" B2B. Especially recently Swiss firms invested a ton into automation after the "Frankenshock", a day in February 2015 when the Swiss Franc appreciated by 15% to the Euro overnight and hence endangered exports on which we rely on. (Content marketing: If you are a software engineer with a EU-memberstate citizenship, and want to move here, there are many interesting, well-paid coding jobs in Zurich. Ping me at iwan@coderfit.com, if you want to get more info.)
ed_balls 8y ago
The biggest problems with drones that are insolvable: - noise - air flow - airborne transport is not energy efficient - malfunctioning drone can cause a lot of damage I see drones as cheaper helicopters. I doubt they will be used for mainstream transportation or delivery system.
- Moru 8y ago
  Drones are not only quad-copters, they can be fixed wing too and then the noise goes way down. Also much more energy efficient to fly with fixed wing than eight propellers. And higher speed too.
bogomipz 8y ago
The article states: >"In fact, there is a flourishing startup scene in the Drone Valley – the stretch of land between EPFL and ETH Zurich." I've been to ETH Zurich but I am not familiar with EPFL? Could someone say where/what this is?
- chrisper 8y ago
  It's in Lausanne. It's on the other end of Switzerland (French border)
  - steve1977 8y ago
    Which, considering the small size of our dear country, basically makes "the stretch of land between EPFL and ETH Zurich" more or less the whole of Switzerland ;)
  - bogomipz 8y ago
    Thanks, OK so this definitely more of a "logical" valley :) Besides the mentioned drone development is there much other tech and start up activity in and around Lausanne? I feel like Zurich seems to get most of the attention for tech in Switzerland.

164 points by imartin2k 8y ago

Hmm... all small scale projects. Point to point Drone delivery as killer application is still not possible in Switzerland. Need special permission for each flight/route.

ThePadawan 8y ago
If you're thinking of an Amazon type delivery (and not, let's say delivery of industrial goods, medicine, ...), the audience would not be there anyway. Notably, major online retailers trialed same-day delivery (usually via bike messenger) within major urban regions (e.g. Zurich) for a moderate charge. Customers generally agreed that it was a great option, but no one used it, so it got canned.

zavi 8y ago

A quick look at the market share numbers instantly renders this article false.

KirinDave 8y ago

Slightly off topic, but I just wanted to point out that this technology they're working on is largely within reach of you as a hobbyist today. What's impressive is the engineering resources and software control systems they're adding. But for less than $300, you can build a small 6" quadcopter from base parts, purchase a small control radio, and a pair of inexpensive FPV goggles+transmitter+receiver. Yeah, less than $300. China's amazing at this. If you get a permit for it in the US (or ignore the law), $50 more gets you radios with miles of range. Your primary limit will be batteries (solutions exist, but bust the budget a bit, fixed wing drones are a lot of more economical here). But there is nothing magical or special about Switzerland other than a concentration of interest. If you wanted, you could start competing with these folks and stand up in front of a shady incubator looking for your economic kickstart really, really fast. You don't need to fabricate parts to build prototypes and most of this stuff is mass produced.

polskibus 8y ago
What parts would you recommend to build a drone that's on par with mavic air ( incl. Gimbal)?
- KirinDave 8y ago
  I'd recommend going to the youtube Channels Rotor Riot and UAV Futures (and possibly Mr. Steele) if you want to get a nice series of well-sourced introductory materials by veteran professional drone operators. I'm by far an amateur, and don't really have enough sim hours to fly the drone I'm just about done assembling. But: the aerial camera gimbal is by far the hardest part to get right, and why vendors like DJI charge what they charge. Software exists to make it work, though.
- natvert 8y ago
  If you want a mavic, just buy a mavic, building something with this level quality / reliability is not worth the effort. The advantage to building your own is that you get a different type of quad -- a racing quad which feels more like flying a porsche (feels like a race car) than an mini-van (e.g. mavic, reliable but super fun to fly). If you want to build a racer, rctimer has some of the best kits (high quality parts, well thought out design). Here's an old build guide from my blog, you would want to get a newer kit with an omnibus-based flight controller, but the idea is the same: https://nathan.vertile.com/blog/2016/04/24/rctimer-u210-mini-quad-build-setup-and-review/ https://nathan.vertile.com/blog/2016/04/24/rctimer-u210-mini... Also, if you're just learning to fly, you probably want to learn acro/rate mode (which is full manual mode) on something smaller first, like this maybe: https://nathan.vertile.com/blog/2017/03/31/betaflight-micro-brushless-aurora-100/ https://nathan.vertile.com/blog/2017/03/31/betaflight-micro-...
mc32 8y ago
Do you know off hand if the toy copter cos are looking to take advantage of the affordability of this kind of tech, or are thry just too old fashioned to care?
- KirinDave 8y ago

monksy 8y ago

This message was brought to you by the Switzerland Tourism Bureau. See our beautiful land via drone footage.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago
Bureau, like bureaucrat, bureaucratic, or bureaucracy.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  Or the thing you keep your drawers in
- kenneth 8y ago
  Could be the German Büro
  - monksy 8y ago
    That's what I was thinking of when I wrote out buro.

natvert 8y ago

Also, for folks interested in general "drone" (aka research/commercialized/militarized robotics) news, the http://dronecenter.bard.edu/ http://dronecenter.bard.edu/ newsletter provides fantastic weekly coverage.

sandworm101 8y ago

They have to work out the air traffic issues. I work for an organization that does mountain flying in SAR scenarios (airforce, helicopters). We can be re-tasked mid-air to a SAR scenario at any time. We need to know within minutes, seconds, that the low level airspace is clear for us to operate. Can these drones avoid large helicopters on their own, or do we need some system to ground them all automatically? This matters for us in particular because SAR can happen literally anywhere, not just in restricted airspace around cities or airports. We really do operate at less that 100 feet. We have landed in hospital parking lots. No notice on the ground. Just suddenly a huge helicopter is parking itself beside all the SUVs. That's what emergency means. So a large number of metal drones is a real safety issue.

poof131 8y ago
This is a very valid use case and something any UTM solution will have to solve. Currently the industry is hoping the FAA will create an uber solution and avoid “patchwork” solutions with state and local involvement, but that will never scale. Local administrators will need to be able to geofence areas in realtime. This will happen but it will take time to roll out and will require local, state, and federal involvement in a manner similar to auto transportation but with some unique aviation aspects.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  >> require local, state, and federal involvement in a manner similar to auto transportation Or, we can do it in a manner similar to aviation. State and local governments have no say. FAA rules govern aviation, with preemption making sure those rules are not complicated by local authorities. Our helicopters cover a huge area during normal operations. During cross-country transfers to things like airshows they operate across the entire continent. Local, even state, rules won't be welcome. It all has to come from the FAA.
  - poof131 8y ago
    Don’t believe an solution based purely on current aviation rules will work for the scale drones will operate at. Firmly convinced that the 200-400’ feet will more closely resemble class-A airspace than class-G and will involve local. Rules will be standardized by the FAA but the administration will have to involve local and they will have a say in restricted airspace, routes, etc. A VFR free-for-all with drones will be a mid-air nightmare and no magical UTM solution will solve it. Don’t disagree that the FAA has preemption, but the current aviation model won’t work in the future and the FAA knows this. They are pushing for more local involvement and it seems to primarily be industry pushing back. Additionally, it isn’t settled law where property rights end. Causby said 87 feet for sure but possibly higher. [1] Still a lot to be worked out how drones will integrate in the national airspace. https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/328us256 https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/328us256

kozikow 8y ago

Having spent some time on business applications of drones, especially imagery, I am actually quite bearish on startup application of drones. Even if there are some locations that accept innovative experimentation with drones (e.g. Switzerland or Japan), the majority of countries (e.g. the USA with part 107) are quite restrictive. Because of severe restriction on autonomy, all large-scale applications are not legal. Not many people are investing time and money into building new drone applications, as it's uncertain it will be legal in the near future. Without serious $ behind it, drone regulations will probably stay restrictive. If you are thinking about Amazon - I heard from multiple people that last-mile delivery is actually more feasible with ground robots.

jillesvangurp 8y ago
This will start changing as technology improves. Specifically it will change as applications emerge where these things provide a concrete economic benefits that offset the risk. Basically when that happens, money starts flowing to regions where the legislation is more favorable and more innovation happens. At some point there's a tipping point and legislation adapts due to pressure of local parties missing out. E.g. the agricultural sector in the US has enormous power on this front. They already use lots of drones as well as e.g. helicopters to dry cherry trees, crop dusting planes, etc. That business is quite expensive and an obvious target for replacement by drones. When technology gets to the point where legislation is the only real obstacle, there will be lots of pressure for legislation to change. I'd say that's a question of when not if. What will need to happen on the safety front is for drones to play nice with regulated airspace and controllers/pilots in the area. Mostly drones currently don't have stuff like ADS-B or transponders on board. Given how cheap and light stuff like that is getting, I think it's a matter of time before there will be some drone specific versions of that that allow controllers to monitor any drone activity in their area. I imagine stuff like that won't be optional for any commercial operations. Mostly drones are a danger only because they stray in the path of other planes. If there's collision warnings, controller advisories, etc. things get a lot safer.
- kozikow 8y ago
  > E.g. the agricultural sector in the US has enormous power on this front. They already use lots of drones as well as e.g. helicopters to dry cherry trees, crop dusting planes, etc. There is a bit of a chicken and egg problem here. As long as there is a restriction of a single drone per pilot, using airplanes and helicopters tends to be cheaper for most use cases.

mirekrusin 8y ago

Interesting to see this on front hn, today I’ve packed everything in London and left for Lausanne, arrived few minutes ago with family. Although innovation activity wasn’t the reason we’ve moved here, it’s very interesting to hear stories like this, there seems to be something good happening with research, gov backing etc. I’ve noticed some good research in areas like cryptography (zero knowledge proofs), formal proofs and now robotics/drones; I know government is also running couple of projects backed by blockchain, quite open minded, not seen much of this kind of interest from other European governments (except Estonia maybe).

s3nnyy 8y ago

Wingtra, the firm in the article with the helicopter/airplane-like drone really made some headlines in local newspapers and rocked some prestigious startup rankings. Switzerland is clearly a startup hub for B2B companies and high/deep tech. I guess, with only 8 million citizens, we can't go B2C and don't have any chance to compete internationally other than "improving" B2B. Especially recently Swiss firms invested a ton into automation after the "Frankenshock", a day in February 2015 when the Swiss Franc appreciated by 15% to the Euro overnight and hence endangered exports on which we rely on. (Content marketing: If you are a software engineer with a EU-memberstate citizenship, and want to move here, there are many interesting, well-paid coding jobs in Zurich. Ping me at iwan@coderfit.com, if you want to get more info.)

ed_balls 8y ago

The biggest problems with drones that are insolvable: - noise - air flow - airborne transport is not energy efficient - malfunctioning drone can cause a lot of damage I see drones as cheaper helicopters. I doubt they will be used for mainstream transportation or delivery system.

Moru 8y ago
Drones are not only quad-copters, they can be fixed wing too and then the noise goes way down. Also much more energy efficient to fly with fixed wing than eight propellers. And higher speed too.

bogomipz 8y ago

The article states: >"In fact, there is a flourishing startup scene in the Drone Valley – the stretch of land between EPFL and ETH Zurich." I've been to ETH Zurich but I am not familiar with EPFL? Could someone say where/what this is?

chrisper 8y ago
It's in Lausanne. It's on the other end of Switzerland (French border)
- steve1977 8y ago
  Which, considering the small size of our dear country, basically makes "the stretch of land between EPFL and ETH Zurich" more or less the whole of Switzerland ;)
- bogomipz 8y ago
  Thanks, OK so this definitely more of a "logical" valley :) Besides the mentioned drone development is there much other tech and start up activity in and around Lausanne? I feel like Zurich seems to get most of the attention for tech in Switzerland.