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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "socialism". France is a very socialist country (esp. compared to the US of A), yet we are nothing like the USSR. Sam

by dtoma 8y ago

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "socialism". France is a very socialist country (esp. compared to the US of A), yet we are nothing like the USSR. Same goes for many EU countries. Aren't you talking about oligarchies rather than socialist regimes? The fact that some oligarchies were born under the pretense of socialism doesn't mean socialism was the cause.

conanbatt 8y ago
It is one of the great debates of our generation wether democratic socialism will show plenitude or the road to serfdom. Although I am not as grim as classical libertarians, im not positive those organizations will last.
- smsm42 8y ago
  It is profoundly sad that after all that happened in 20th century it's still a debate. The biggest history's lesson seems to be that nobody ever learns from history.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    So far the scandinavian countries have shown success, while still keeping liberty indexes very high. The US is not the free-est country in the world.
smsm42 8y ago
> France is a very socialist country (esp. compared to the US of A), Compared to the USA - yes, compared to the USSR - no. France is largely capitalist economy with a lot of socialist policies. As long as the engine of the capitalist economy (private ownership, private initiative, private capital, substantial competition, etc.) is intact, it can bear a lot of socialist policies without breaking down (even at the cost of some slowdowns and inefficiencies). Once you break that, there's pretty much no chance. > Aren't you talking about oligarchies rather than socialist regimes? No, unless you choose to redefine what has been always known as socialism as "oligarchy" and what has been always known as capitalist economy with substantial government intrusions as "socialism". This would make conversation very awkward, as any non-traditional term usage tends to do, but will not change anything of the substance. USSR economy and French economy (and both societies of course) were different in principle, not in degree, and you can not ignore that while staying in the realm of reality and outside of fairy-land economics. > The fact that some oligarchies were born under the pretense of socialism doesn't mean socialism was the cause. USSR was one of the largest and most complete and consistent implementations of socialism ever attempted. If they didn't do it right, on your opinion, then nobody could do it right, ever.

by dtoma 8y ago

conanbatt 8y ago

It is one of the great debates of our generation wether democratic socialism will show plenitude or the road to serfdom. Although I am not as grim as classical libertarians, im not positive those organizations will last.

smsm42 8y ago
It is profoundly sad that after all that happened in 20th century it's still a debate. The biggest history's lesson seems to be that nobody ever learns from history.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  So far the scandinavian countries have shown success, while still keeping liberty indexes very high. The US is not the free-est country in the world.

smsm42 8y ago

> France is a very socialist country (esp. compared to the US of A), Compared to the USA - yes, compared to the USSR - no. France is largely capitalist economy with a lot of socialist policies. As long as the engine of the capitalist economy (private ownership, private initiative, private capital, substantial competition, etc.) is intact, it can bear a lot of socialist policies without breaking down (even at the cost of some slowdowns and inefficiencies). Once you break that, there's pretty much no chance. > Aren't you talking about oligarchies rather than socialist regimes? No, unless you choose to redefine what has been always known as socialism as "oligarchy" and what has been always known as capitalist economy with substantial government intrusions as "socialism". This would make conversation very awkward, as any non-traditional term usage tends to do, but will not change anything of the substance. USSR economy and French economy (and both societies of course) were different in principle, not in degree, and you can not ignore that while staying in the realm of reality and outside of fairy-land economics. > The fact that some oligarchies were born under the pretense of socialism doesn't mean socialism was the cause. USSR was one of the largest and most complete and consistent implementations of socialism ever attempted. If they didn't do it right, on your opinion, then nobody could do it right, ever.