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From the perspective of a dev: why should I be anything less than a yes-man, on topics where the decision authority clearly isn't mine? The ACM Code of Ethics

From the perspective of a dev: why should I be anything less than a yes-man, on topics where the decision authority clearly isn't mine? The ACM Code of Ethics has no teeth, meaning CS isn't a profession; and even if the decision in question is so thoroughly self-destructive that the company goes under, there's plenty more companies to work-for in that case.

P_I_Staker 8y ago
If it absolutely is something that they're qualified to make decisions regarding maybe. Oftentimes the people handling the day to day operations of a company, aren't qualified to make certain specific decisions. Just letting your boss or colleague do whatever he/she wants is a terrible idea. Be polite, reasonable, and willing to accept defeat, even when you're in the right; but don't be a yes man. And for what reason? The authority isn't your's? Authority shouldn't be blindly followed. Authority means you make a final decision when consensus isn't reachable, not that you're beyond reproach. I have no clue where you're coming from with that last statement. Because a code of ethics "with teeth" doesn't exist, we shouldn't adhere to one? That we have no responsibility to look after the best interests of the company, shareholders, and community? Everyone bears that responsibility. You're claiming CS isn't a profession, because there doesn't exist a board, bar, or licenses? It's just an unregulated profession.
- mmirate 8y ago
  > I have no clue where you're coming from with that last statement. Because a code of ethics "with teeth" doesn't exist, we shouldn't adhere to one? "I shouldn't do X" logically follows from the conjunction of "I needn't do X" and "doing X has a lesser expected-value than not doing X". > Everyone bears that responsibility. You're claiming CS isn't a profession, because there doesn't exist a board, bar, or licenses? It's just an unregulated profession. An unregulated profession is no profession at all. That kind of holistic, broad-minded responsibility is levied nigh-solely by professional regulation and decision-authority. (I say "nigh" only because there's probably some extraordinary and ridiculous circumstance that doesn't come to mind right now.)
rleigh 8y ago
CS not being a profession doesn't preclude acting professionally. As for why you shouldn't be a yes-man. I am an individual, I'm educated, skilled, and have two decades of experience and what I consider to be generally good judgement. I always attempt to give of my best and to do what is right for the best interest of the project and company/organisation. If that means pointing out facts which are wrong, ill-considered or counter to any prevailing group-think, I would do so every time. It might not always make me popular, and it might ruffle a few feathers, but to ignore problems and evade responsibility by silently going with the dictates of those above me or in the group would be a disservice to the project, the wider organisation and to myself. I refuse to be a spineless jellyfish merely to make life slightly easier for myself in the short term. I'd rather go home each day satisfied that I did the best I could despite the circumstances, than leave knowing I did mediocre or downright awful work when I could have done better. Maybe I wouldn't be a good cultural fit in some places. But everyone in an organisation bears some level of individual responsibility, and I personally would prefer to work with people who can shoulder it, and show they care about their work by arguing their case well, rather than abrogating it and showing that they don't really care at all about what they do so long as they get paid. In my experience the output of the latter is typically mediocre at best, because they don't give a damn.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- donbright 8y ago
  dear young people who are reading the above comment. IMHO dont be afraid to take it with a grain of salt. don't expect to be rewarded for saying no. don't expect a light feather ruffling. don't expect light consequences. be prepared to get fired. be prepared to get demoted. be prepared to lose your health insurance. be prepared to change your industry. be prepared for the realities that most people face. if you say no to something that really is important, then there will, the vast majority of the time, be major consequences. dont expect it to be easy. dont expect a reward. dont expect anyone to even understand or care why you are doing it. dont expect to be respected. dont expect anything. be prepared. when you are living in poverty or are homeless, that no wont really mean much. only say no when you have the ground to stand on that can catch you when the inevitable smack in the face comes. and dont feel ashamed if you have to say yes to survive once in a while. its actually what most people do. every day. even people you respect as heroes. sometimes especially the people you respect as heroes. when a really big no comes, there will be many people chanting it together, and many others behind them silently backing them up, all of whom had to say yes, in ways large and small, at some time or another, in the past, just to survive long enough to be together in that space, building that critical mass, and supporting each other.
rleigh 8y ago
This point about ethics was so important, I thought I'd follow up with a more detailed example. In a previous position (well over a decade ago, for a company which no longer exists), I was asked by my boss to do something which was both unethical and possibly illegal. Loyalty to your company and wanting to keep your job is one thing, but we all have lines we are unwilling to cross, and this crossed one of mine. I considered my position, and refused to have anything to do with it; I did not want to be remotely associated or culpable to any degree. In the meantime, I considered my future, and decided that I couldn't in good conscience continue to work for the company. I made my plans for the future, secured them, and I handed in my notice a short number of weeks later. We all have a duty and personal choice to conduct ourselves ethically, even if that means taking it on the chin and finding another job. To ignore it is to implicitly condone it and the increase of suffering and evil in the world as a consequence. I do wonder how the subset of the employees of Uber, Facebook, Google etc. who are knowingly engaged in unethical and/or illegal work justify it to themselves.

P_I_Staker 8y ago

If it absolutely is something that they're qualified to make decisions regarding maybe. Oftentimes the people handling the day to day operations of a company, aren't qualified to make certain specific decisions. Just letting your boss or colleague do whatever he/she wants is a terrible idea. Be polite, reasonable, and willing to accept defeat, even when you're in the right; but don't be a yes man. And for what reason? The authority isn't your's? Authority shouldn't be blindly followed. Authority means you make a final decision when consensus isn't reachable, not that you're beyond reproach. I have no clue where you're coming from with that last statement. Because a code of ethics "with teeth" doesn't exist, we shouldn't adhere to one? That we have no responsibility to look after the best interests of the company, shareholders, and community? Everyone bears that responsibility. You're claiming CS isn't a profession, because there doesn't exist a board, bar, or licenses? It's just an unregulated profession.

mmirate 8y ago
> I have no clue where you're coming from with that last statement. Because a code of ethics "with teeth" doesn't exist, we shouldn't adhere to one? "I shouldn't do X" logically follows from the conjunction of "I needn't do X" and "doing X has a lesser expected-value than not doing X". > Everyone bears that responsibility. You're claiming CS isn't a profession, because there doesn't exist a board, bar, or licenses? It's just an unregulated profession. An unregulated profession is no profession at all. That kind of holistic, broad-minded responsibility is levied nigh-solely by professional regulation and decision-authority. (I say "nigh" only because there's probably some extraordinary and ridiculous circumstance that doesn't come to mind right now.)

rleigh 8y ago

CS not being a profession doesn't preclude acting professionally. As for why you shouldn't be a yes-man. I am an individual, I'm educated, skilled, and have two decades of experience and what I consider to be generally good judgement. I always attempt to give of my best and to do what is right for the best interest of the project and company/organisation. If that means pointing out facts which are wrong, ill-considered or counter to any prevailing group-think, I would do so every time. It might not always make me popular, and it might ruffle a few feathers, but to ignore problems and evade responsibility by silently going with the dictates of those above me or in the group would be a disservice to the project, the wider organisation and to myself. I refuse to be a spineless jellyfish merely to make life slightly easier for myself in the short term. I'd rather go home each day satisfied that I did the best I could despite the circumstances, than leave knowing I did mediocre or downright awful work when I could have done better. Maybe I wouldn't be a good cultural fit in some places. But everyone in an organisation bears some level of individual responsibility, and I personally would prefer to work with people who can shoulder it, and show they care about their work by arguing their case well, rather than abrogating it and showing that they don't really care at all about what they do so long as they get paid. In my experience the output of the latter is typically mediocre at best, because they don't give a damn.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
donbright 8y ago
dear young people who are reading the above comment. IMHO dont be afraid to take it with a grain of salt. don't expect to be rewarded for saying no. don't expect a light feather ruffling. don't expect light consequences. be prepared to get fired. be prepared to get demoted. be prepared to lose your health insurance. be prepared to change your industry. be prepared for the realities that most people face. if you say no to something that really is important, then there will, the vast majority of the time, be major consequences. dont expect it to be easy. dont expect a reward. dont expect anyone to even understand or care why you are doing it. dont expect to be respected. dont expect anything. be prepared. when you are living in poverty or are homeless, that no wont really mean much. only say no when you have the ground to stand on that can catch you when the inevitable smack in the face comes. and dont feel ashamed if you have to say yes to survive once in a while. its actually what most people do. every day. even people you respect as heroes. sometimes especially the people you respect as heroes. when a really big no comes, there will be many people chanting it together, and many others behind them silently backing them up, all of whom had to say yes, in ways large and small, at some time or another, in the past, just to survive long enough to be together in that space, building that critical mass, and supporting each other.

rleigh 8y ago

This point about ethics was so important, I thought I'd follow up with a more detailed example. In a previous position (well over a decade ago, for a company which no longer exists), I was asked by my boss to do something which was both unethical and possibly illegal. Loyalty to your company and wanting to keep your job is one thing, but we all have lines we are unwilling to cross, and this crossed one of mine. I considered my position, and refused to have anything to do with it; I did not want to be remotely associated or culpable to any degree. In the meantime, I considered my future, and decided that I couldn't in good conscience continue to work for the company. I made my plans for the future, secured them, and I handed in my notice a short number of weeks later. We all have a duty and personal choice to conduct ourselves ethically, even if that means taking it on the chin and finding another job. To ignore it is to implicitly condone it and the increase of suffering and evil in the world as a consequence. I do wonder how the subset of the employees of Uber, Facebook, Google etc. who are knowingly engaged in unethical and/or illegal work justify it to themselves.