6 ms·

Good culture fit is when we ask an employee to do something and they do it. A bad fit is someone who occasionally says no. A toxic employee occasionally says

Good culture fit is when we ask an employee to do something and they do it. A bad fit is someone who occasionally says no. A toxic employee occasionally says no and explains why they won't.

atomi 8y ago
I've always thought being meek and obedient was part and parcel of working for someone else. But I think being a good culture fit is a bit more than that.
- lovich 8y ago
  Being meek and obedient is part of working for someone else when you have no choice. If you can get a comparable job in a short time, then it's the employers who start needing to be more meek
- adrianmonk 8y ago
  My theory is hire smart professionals, then treat them like they're smart and professional. They should be expected to have an opinion and allowed to express it. If you don't want any of your ideas challenged ever, then don't waste your money hiring a person with a brain. And if you hire someone with 10 years of experience, hopefully you can appreciate that they've learned something in that time that give them a perspective you want to hear. But, of course, after they've respectfully disagreed, they should also be ready to set aside their opinion and go along with whatever was decided. That comes with the professional part of smart and professional.
- AlexCoventry 8y ago
  I'm working worth some folks now who want and appreciate severe critical feedback, and it's great.
rleigh 8y ago
Why do you consider it bad to say no? Do you not expect your employees to exhibit independent thought and act professionally? If someone was asked to do something which was seriously wrong, wouldn't you want them to call it out rather than be a yes man and silently let something bad happen? If they explain exactly what's wrong and why, isn't that simply being professional? Or do you just want obedient slaves?
- mmirate 8y ago
  From the perspective of a dev: why should I be anything less than a yes-man, on topics where the decision authority clearly isn't mine? The ACM Code of Ethics has no teeth, meaning CS isn't a profession; and even if the decision in question is so thoroughly self-destructive that the company goes under, there's plenty more companies to work-for in that case.
  - P_I_Staker 8y ago
    If it absolutely is something that they're qualified to make decisions regarding maybe. Oftentimes the people handling the day to day operations of a company, aren't qualified to make certain specific decisions. Just letting your boss or colleague do whatever he/she wants is a terrible idea. Be polite, reasonable, and willing to accept defeat, even when you're in the right; but don't be a yes man. And for what reason? The authority isn't your's? Authority shouldn't be blindly followed. Authority means you make a final decision when consensus isn't reachable, not that you're beyond reproach. I have no clue where you're coming from with that last statement. Because a code of ethics "with teeth" doesn't exist, we shouldn't adhere to one? That we have no responsibility to look after the best interests of the company, shareholders, and community? Everyone bears that responsibility. You're claiming CS isn't a profession, because there doesn't exist a board, bar, or licenses? It's just an unregulated profession.
    - mmirate 8y ago
      > I have no clue where you're coming from with that last statement. Because a code of ethics "with teeth" doesn't exist, we shouldn't adhere to one? "I shouldn't do X" logically follows from the conjunction of "I needn't do X" and "doing X has a lesser expected-value than not doing X". > Everyone bears that responsibility. You're claiming CS isn't a profession, because there doesn't exist a board, bar, or licenses? It's just an unregulated profession. An unregulated profession is no profession at all. That kind of holistic, broad-minded responsibility is levied nigh-solely by professional regulation and decision-authority. (I say "nigh" only because there's probably some extraordinary and ridiculous circumstance that doesn't come to mind right now.)
zoomablemind 8y ago
That's exactly the reason why the culture fit is not clearly defined in companies. Any newcomer brings a potential challenge to status quo. The 'culture' is in fact may be quite the opposite to the proclaimed values. This may not be visible(any longer) to those that 'fit', yet may be quite apparent to someone new. Hiring manager may not even realize what 'culture' has been fostered. Team dynamics is a tricky thing. I doubt that any team would scout on purpose for assholes, yet many stable teams may keep one/some. Same at the other end. As long as the rotation is not high, the mix is the 'culture'. That's why 'culture fit' is often invoked as a guise for something else short of discriminating answer.
P_I_Staker 8y ago
No. Sometimes you must say no. No is important. Explaining why no is the answer isn't toxic, it's usually necessary, because otherwise you're saying: No, because I said so, which is toxic.
- Skrillex 8y ago
  To me, the parent's statement is ironic. I could be wrong though.
voycey 8y ago
A toxic employee occasionally says no and explains why they won't. Can't work out if sarcasm or not but I have no problem being told no by my employees IF they explain why not?

Good culture fit is when we ask an employee to do something and they do it. A bad fit is someone who occasionally says no. A toxic employee occasionally says no and explains why they won't.

atomi 8y ago

I've always thought being meek and obedient was part and parcel of working for someone else. But I think being a good culture fit is a bit more than that.

lovich 8y ago
Being meek and obedient is part of working for someone else when you have no choice. If you can get a comparable job in a short time, then it's the employers who start needing to be more meek
adrianmonk 8y ago
My theory is hire smart professionals, then treat them like they're smart and professional. They should be expected to have an opinion and allowed to express it. If you don't want any of your ideas challenged ever, then don't waste your money hiring a person with a brain. And if you hire someone with 10 years of experience, hopefully you can appreciate that they've learned something in that time that give them a perspective you want to hear. But, of course, after they've respectfully disagreed, they should also be ready to set aside their opinion and go along with whatever was decided. That comes with the professional part of smart and professional.
AlexCoventry 8y ago
I'm working worth some folks now who want and appreciate severe critical feedback, and it's great.

rleigh 8y ago

Why do you consider it bad to say no? Do you not expect your employees to exhibit independent thought and act professionally? If someone was asked to do something which was seriously wrong, wouldn't you want them to call it out rather than be a yes man and silently let something bad happen? If they explain exactly what's wrong and why, isn't that simply being professional? Or do you just want obedient slaves?

mmirate 8y ago
From the perspective of a dev: why should I be anything less than a yes-man, on topics where the decision authority clearly isn't mine? The ACM Code of Ethics has no teeth, meaning CS isn't a profession; and even if the decision in question is so thoroughly self-destructive that the company goes under, there's plenty more companies to work-for in that case.
- P_I_Staker 8y ago
  If it absolutely is something that they're qualified to make decisions regarding maybe. Oftentimes the people handling the day to day operations of a company, aren't qualified to make certain specific decisions. Just letting your boss or colleague do whatever he/she wants is a terrible idea. Be polite, reasonable, and willing to accept defeat, even when you're in the right; but don't be a yes man. And for what reason? The authority isn't your's? Authority shouldn't be blindly followed. Authority means you make a final decision when consensus isn't reachable, not that you're beyond reproach. I have no clue where you're coming from with that last statement. Because a code of ethics "with teeth" doesn't exist, we shouldn't adhere to one? That we have no responsibility to look after the best interests of the company, shareholders, and community? Everyone bears that responsibility. You're claiming CS isn't a profession, because there doesn't exist a board, bar, or licenses? It's just an unregulated profession.
  - mmirate 8y ago
    > I have no clue where you're coming from with that last statement. Because a code of ethics "with teeth" doesn't exist, we shouldn't adhere to one? "I shouldn't do X" logically follows from the conjunction of "I needn't do X" and "doing X has a lesser expected-value than not doing X". > Everyone bears that responsibility. You're claiming CS isn't a profession, because there doesn't exist a board, bar, or licenses? It's just an unregulated profession. An unregulated profession is no profession at all. That kind of holistic, broad-minded responsibility is levied nigh-solely by professional regulation and decision-authority. (I say "nigh" only because there's probably some extraordinary and ridiculous circumstance that doesn't come to mind right now.)

zoomablemind 8y ago

That's exactly the reason why the culture fit is not clearly defined in companies. Any newcomer brings a potential challenge to status quo. The 'culture' is in fact may be quite the opposite to the proclaimed values. This may not be visible(any longer) to those that 'fit', yet may be quite apparent to someone new. Hiring manager may not even realize what 'culture' has been fostered. Team dynamics is a tricky thing. I doubt that any team would scout on purpose for assholes, yet many stable teams may keep one/some. Same at the other end. As long as the rotation is not high, the mix is the 'culture'. That's why 'culture fit' is often invoked as a guise for something else short of discriminating answer.

P_I_Staker 8y ago

No. Sometimes you must say no. No is important. Explaining why no is the answer isn't toxic, it's usually necessary, because otherwise you're saying: No, because I said so, which is toxic.

Skrillex 8y ago
To me, the parent's statement is ironic. I could be wrong though.

voycey 8y ago

A toxic employee occasionally says no and explains why they won't. Can't work out if sarcasm or not but I have no problem being told no by my employees IF they explain why not?