5 ms·

Having been a mediator for many peer/co-worker conflicts, I've come to believe that "true" assholes (in the sense of someone who is fundamentally mean and entit

Having been a mediator for many peer/co-worker conflicts, I've come to believe that "true" assholes (in the sense of someone who is fundamentally mean and entitled) are way more rare than people admit. On the other hand, it's not rare at all that a person can be considered an asshole by one group but work well in another. A large part of culture fit is about minimizing these personality conflicts.

watwut 8y ago
If too many people are in conflict with existing culture, then maybe the culture itself is a problem.
- thereisnospork 8y ago
  Maybe, but cultures are relative. If a small subset of the population, 'assholes' prefer to work in an environment with other 'assholes' is it a bad thing that some companies nurture an 'asshole' culture? Provided nothing crosses the bounds of a federally protected class ofc.
  - watwut 8y ago
    Assholery is not just a question of preference. Generally, when we talk about assholes we talk about people who act unethically, lie, take advantage of others, steal whenever they get away with it and so on. Yes it is bad to build next Enron or Theranos. And yes they will cross bounds of federally protected class, because in asshole culture people need to take advantage of others as much as possible - it is not optional. Taking advantage of protected class is easier then of other groups (in general) so they will. If we are talking about asshole who are only arrogant or rude, then it matters only when you are loosing customers or cant hire and keep employes due to that (I have seen that happen).
    - thereisnospork 8y ago
      You are conflating unethical behavior with unpleasant - two very different things. If it was unclear, I am explicitly referring to the latter, which again is highly relative. A company full of dog lovers with a pet friendly office would have a high 'asshole score' to someone who is allergic to dogs while at the same time being highly appealing to some. Accommodating 'poor culture fits' in this hypothetical company would ruin the appeal for many who work there, negatively impacting business metrics like employee retention/acquisition.
      - watwut 8y ago
        Legally speaking, wouldn't the guy with allergy be federally protected class here? He has medical reason not directly related to work for why the office is not suitable for him. It seems to fall into legal definition. Also, dog lovers I know in real life are not assholes to people with allergies or fears. My experience is that most accept allergies as real medical issues and would seek solution. I also think that you are using the word asshole to liberally as in meaning "anyone who annoyed me mildly". That is not how "asshole" or "asshole culture" terms are normally used. Why being unpleasant is part of being asshole typically, it is not the whole thing. Typically, there are very real negative externalities on top of just being unpleasant (for example other people wasting time dealing with asshole temper tamptrums, people no voicing objections due to them or having to tip toe around him or spending a lot of effort to work around that person peculiarities etc).
        tsukikage 8y ago
        The most common point of conflict of this sort IME is "I prefer a quiet environment, people talking / listening to music around me disturbs my concentration" vs "I prefer to be around conversation / banter / music, a quiet environment makes me feel lonely, miserable and lethargic"
  - convolvatron 8y ago
    if we temporarily define asshole to mean things like: - narcissistic - more interested in asserting dominance over other employees than advancing the good of the project - likely to divert the project to advance some personal goals - constantly generates interpersonal conflict then yes, you aren't getting as much as you should out of your engineering organization.
    - RHSeeger 8y ago
      But it's not uncommon to label someone an asshole for being comfortable saying "That's a bad idea and it won't work; here's why..." rather than beating around the bush. On the other hand, someone who is willing to "divert the project to advance some personal goals" all too often, will be very likable and sociable and not considered an asshole. There was a phrase at a company I used to work at "he doesn't need the project to succeed, he just needs it to not fail", and there were a lot of people who would drag a project on long enough to move up; really pleasant, friendly people... who didn't care who got hurt once they moved on to the next project.
      - watwut 8y ago
        > But it's not uncommon to label someone an asshole for being comfortable saying "That's a bad idea and it won't work; here's why..." rather than beating around the bush. In my experience, that is rather uncommon. You may be ignored after saying that or not believed, but you get rarely labeled asshole for that alone. Frankly, in my experience, this is stereotype that people who are have hard time expressing themselves constructively and have trouble controlling anger after not getting their way like to throw around so that they sound better. > On the other hand, someone who is willing to "divert the project to advance some personal goals" all too often, will be very likable and sociable and not considered an asshole. There was a phrase at a company I used to work at "he doesn't need the project to succeed, he just needs it to not fail", and there were a lot of people who would drag a project on long enough to move up; really pleasant, friendly people... who didn't care who got hurt once they moved on to the next project. Bad management, run away as fast as you can.
- grandmczeb 8y ago
  What counts as "too many"? Different groups have different needs when it comes to cohesiveness. It's up to company leadership to balance that requirement with openness/ease of hiring/etc.
  - watwut 8y ago
    Simply said, if only very rare kind of personality fits your needs and level of cohesiveness, then it is very likely that your culture would be more effective if it changed. Chances are, the culture is too ossified or otherwise unable to deal with changes, problems, differences of opinion or other exceptions from routine. Different groups have different needs, but some of what groups call "need" is actually dysfunction.
    - grandmczeb 8y ago
      I think it's unusual for a company to weed out a large percentage of the candidates due to cultural fit, but if they are, I agree there's probably a deeper issue at play. Where exactly that line of dysfunction falls is company/group dependent though.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

watwut 8y ago

If too many people are in conflict with existing culture, then maybe the culture itself is a problem.

thereisnospork 8y ago
Maybe, but cultures are relative. If a small subset of the population, 'assholes' prefer to work in an environment with other 'assholes' is it a bad thing that some companies nurture an 'asshole' culture? Provided nothing crosses the bounds of a federally protected class ofc.
- watwut 8y ago
  Assholery is not just a question of preference. Generally, when we talk about assholes we talk about people who act unethically, lie, take advantage of others, steal whenever they get away with it and so on. Yes it is bad to build next Enron or Theranos. And yes they will cross bounds of federally protected class, because in asshole culture people need to take advantage of others as much as possible - it is not optional. Taking advantage of protected class is easier then of other groups (in general) so they will. If we are talking about asshole who are only arrogant or rude, then it matters only when you are loosing customers or cant hire and keep employes due to that (I have seen that happen).
  - thereisnospork 8y ago
    You are conflating unethical behavior with unpleasant - two very different things. If it was unclear, I am explicitly referring to the latter, which again is highly relative. A company full of dog lovers with a pet friendly office would have a high 'asshole score' to someone who is allergic to dogs while at the same time being highly appealing to some. Accommodating 'poor culture fits' in this hypothetical company would ruin the appeal for many who work there, negatively impacting business metrics like employee retention/acquisition.
    - watwut 8y ago
      Legally speaking, wouldn't the guy with allergy be federally protected class here? He has medical reason not directly related to work for why the office is not suitable for him. It seems to fall into legal definition. Also, dog lovers I know in real life are not assholes to people with allergies or fears. My experience is that most accept allergies as real medical issues and would seek solution. I also think that you are using the word asshole to liberally as in meaning "anyone who annoyed me mildly". That is not how "asshole" or "asshole culture" terms are normally used. Why being unpleasant is part of being asshole typically, it is not the whole thing. Typically, there are very real negative externalities on top of just being unpleasant (for example other people wasting time dealing with asshole temper tamptrums, people no voicing objections due to them or having to tip toe around him or spending a lot of effort to work around that person peculiarities etc).
      - tsukikage 8y ago
        The most common point of conflict of this sort IME is "I prefer a quiet environment, people talking / listening to music around me disturbs my concentration" vs "I prefer to be around conversation / banter / music, a quiet environment makes me feel lonely, miserable and lethargic"
- convolvatron 8y ago
  if we temporarily define asshole to mean things like: - narcissistic - more interested in asserting dominance over other employees than advancing the good of the project - likely to divert the project to advance some personal goals - constantly generates interpersonal conflict then yes, you aren't getting as much as you should out of your engineering organization.
  - RHSeeger 8y ago
    But it's not uncommon to label someone an asshole for being comfortable saying "That's a bad idea and it won't work; here's why..." rather than beating around the bush. On the other hand, someone who is willing to "divert the project to advance some personal goals" all too often, will be very likable and sociable and not considered an asshole. There was a phrase at a company I used to work at "he doesn't need the project to succeed, he just needs it to not fail", and there were a lot of people who would drag a project on long enough to move up; really pleasant, friendly people... who didn't care who got hurt once they moved on to the next project.
    - watwut 8y ago
      > But it's not uncommon to label someone an asshole for being comfortable saying "That's a bad idea and it won't work; here's why..." rather than beating around the bush. In my experience, that is rather uncommon. You may be ignored after saying that or not believed, but you get rarely labeled asshole for that alone. Frankly, in my experience, this is stereotype that people who are have hard time expressing themselves constructively and have trouble controlling anger after not getting their way like to throw around so that they sound better. > On the other hand, someone who is willing to "divert the project to advance some personal goals" all too often, will be very likable and sociable and not considered an asshole. There was a phrase at a company I used to work at "he doesn't need the project to succeed, he just needs it to not fail", and there were a lot of people who would drag a project on long enough to move up; really pleasant, friendly people... who didn't care who got hurt once they moved on to the next project. Bad management, run away as fast as you can.
grandmczeb 8y ago
What counts as "too many"? Different groups have different needs when it comes to cohesiveness. It's up to company leadership to balance that requirement with openness/ease of hiring/etc.
- watwut 8y ago
  Simply said, if only very rare kind of personality fits your needs and level of cohesiveness, then it is very likely that your culture would be more effective if it changed. Chances are, the culture is too ossified or otherwise unable to deal with changes, problems, differences of opinion or other exceptions from routine. Different groups have different needs, but some of what groups call "need" is actually dysfunction.
  - grandmczeb 8y ago
    I think it's unusual for a company to weed out a large percentage of the candidates due to cultural fit, but if they are, I agree there's probably a deeper issue at play. Where exactly that line of dysfunction falls is company/group dependent though.

deleted 8y ago

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