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I'm in agreement with other commenters here that "culture fit" usually feels like a euphemism for something else. I think what it's really about is explained he

I'm in agreement with other commenters here that "culture fit" usually feels like a euphemism for something else. I think what it's really about is explained here in the article: "A single toxic employee who is a bad fit for the existing culture can tank the morale and productivity of an entire team. " So, is there really more to "culture fit" than the No Asshole Rule (1)? If not, can we start calling it what it is: "asshole rejection screening". Then maybe we can use the word "culture fit" less (maybe even "culture" less), because requiring new employees to "fit a culture" is pretty lacking in concrete justification. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule

cirgue 8y ago
Here's a concrete example: how does someone ask a peer to do something for them? There are a bunch of different ways this can be done, and only a small percentage of them fall into 'asshole' territory, but if you ask ten people to define the 'asshole boundary', you will get ten different responses.
longerthoughts 8y ago
I'm on board with "asshole rejection screening" in place of "culture fit". Of course the flip-side of this is when a team of assholes rejects a non-asshole because they deem them incompatible, so perhaps we need to use the more general "asshole screening" for the sake of inclusiveness.
grandmczeb 8y ago
Having been a mediator for many peer/co-worker conflicts, I've come to believe that "true" assholes (in the sense of someone who is fundamentally mean and entitled) are way more rare than people admit. On the other hand, it's not rare at all that a person can be considered an asshole by one group but work well in another. A large part of culture fit is about minimizing these personality conflicts.
- watwut 8y ago
  If too many people are in conflict with existing culture, then maybe the culture itself is a problem.
  - thereisnospork 8y ago
    Maybe, but cultures are relative. If a small subset of the population, 'assholes' prefer to work in an environment with other 'assholes' is it a bad thing that some companies nurture an 'asshole' culture? Provided nothing crosses the bounds of a federally protected class ofc.
    - watwut 8y ago
      Assholery is not just a question of preference. Generally, when we talk about assholes we talk about people who act unethically, lie, take advantage of others, steal whenever they get away with it and so on. Yes it is bad to build next Enron or Theranos. And yes they will cross bounds of federally protected class, because in asshole culture people need to take advantage of others as much as possible - it is not optional. Taking advantage of protected class is easier then of other groups (in general) so they will. If we are talking about asshole who are only arrogant or rude, then it matters only when you are loosing customers or cant hire and keep employes due to that (I have seen that happen).
      - thereisnospork 8y ago
        You are conflating unethical behavior with unpleasant - two very different things. If it was unclear, I am explicitly referring to the latter, which again is highly relative. A company full of dog lovers with a pet friendly office would have a high 'asshole score' to someone who is allergic to dogs while at the same time being highly appealing to some. Accommodating 'poor culture fits' in this hypothetical company would ruin the appeal for many who work there, negatively impacting business metrics like employee retention/acquisition.
        8y ago
throwaway080383 8y ago
I think someone can be toxic and tank morale and productivity for an entire team without being an asshole. E.g. a distrust of upper management bordering on paranoia.
fipple 8y ago
Hehe... maybe the Uber parallel is they were afraid to hire a non asshole due to fear of diluting their asshole culture.
hueving 8y ago
Asshole is mainly just a word for someone who doesn't fit your culture though. Being direct is seen as being an asshole in some cultures and being indirect is seen as being an asshole in others. Despite the vagueness of it, "culture fit" is making sure that you won't be considered an asshole by the existing team.
some_account 8y ago
50 year old programmer in the middle of an open office with 25 year olds bouncing balls around, playing loud music - bad culture fit. Foreign middle aged man who can't speak the language very good in an environment where native language is important - not a good culture fit. Female 25 year old in a group of 50 year old men who mostly wants to relax at work and are a bit awkward around young women - bad culture fit. Very outspoken social person who enjoys partying in the middle of senior bank personalities who are extremely detail oriented and introverted - bad culture fit. Just saying there is a lot of bad culture fits. It can be age, gender, race, personality and even appearance. Bad culture fit is everywhere. It's just not something we talk about very openly because it's not socially accepted. So we hide it under other reasons.
- zoomablemind 8y ago
  Shouldn't then the job descriptions just mention that so it's obvious for the applicant beforehand?
  - 1337biz 8y ago
    That's actually a good point. If job discriptions had a short description of the team / company culture, it would weed out many non fitting candidates.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  50 year old programmer in the middle of an open office with 25 year olds bouncing balls around, playing loud music - bad culture fit. Really? I'm almost 50 and I'm in an office with a bunch of 20-somethings who like to yo-yo. Music is only on headphones, though. Female 25 year old in a group of 50 year old men who mostly wants to relax at work and are a bit awkward around young women - bad culture fit. That's very dependent on the particular people involved. I've been in plenty of contexts where 40 and 50-something men could relax with a 25 year old woman. (Traditional music.) In times past, such a circumstance was pretty normal. People have ways of creating temporary spaces, both exclusive and inclusive. Letting this happen in ways that are positive is how larger gatherings and groups of people are supposed to work. It's where we've mucked about with that, albeit sometimes with the best intentions, where dysfunctions have crept in.
RobertRoberts 8y ago
Recognizing cultural differences is important. Some cultures feel that being on time is vital to running a business properly. Other cultures see schedules as suggestions and not requirements. Imagine 50/50 split of these two cultures trying to agree on something as simple as when and how to run a weekly meeting?
chooseaname 8y ago
I think at some places it starts off as the "no asshole rule", but then as you start hiring more people like the rest of the team, that will lead to actual discrimination. If you have a team of early 30 somethings, they may not want a young 20 something or an older 40 something on the team because, well, they're not like the other team members. And it's not always explicitly "we don't want 40 somethings". It is simply implicit in the way you hire. But implicit or explicit, it's still wrong.

cirgue 8y ago

Here's a concrete example: how does someone ask a peer to do something for them? There are a bunch of different ways this can be done, and only a small percentage of them fall into 'asshole' territory, but if you ask ten people to define the 'asshole boundary', you will get ten different responses.

longerthoughts 8y ago

I'm on board with "asshole rejection screening" in place of "culture fit". Of course the flip-side of this is when a team of assholes rejects a non-asshole because they deem them incompatible, so perhaps we need to use the more general "asshole screening" for the sake of inclusiveness.

grandmczeb 8y ago

Having been a mediator for many peer/co-worker conflicts, I've come to believe that "true" assholes (in the sense of someone who is fundamentally mean and entitled) are way more rare than people admit. On the other hand, it's not rare at all that a person can be considered an asshole by one group but work well in another. A large part of culture fit is about minimizing these personality conflicts.

watwut 8y ago
If too many people are in conflict with existing culture, then maybe the culture itself is a problem.
- thereisnospork 8y ago
  Maybe, but cultures are relative. If a small subset of the population, 'assholes' prefer to work in an environment with other 'assholes' is it a bad thing that some companies nurture an 'asshole' culture? Provided nothing crosses the bounds of a federally protected class ofc.
  - watwut 8y ago
    Assholery is not just a question of preference. Generally, when we talk about assholes we talk about people who act unethically, lie, take advantage of others, steal whenever they get away with it and so on. Yes it is bad to build next Enron or Theranos. And yes they will cross bounds of federally protected class, because in asshole culture people need to take advantage of others as much as possible - it is not optional. Taking advantage of protected class is easier then of other groups (in general) so they will. If we are talking about asshole who are only arrogant or rude, then it matters only when you are loosing customers or cant hire and keep employes due to that (I have seen that happen).
    - thereisnospork 8y ago
      You are conflating unethical behavior with unpleasant - two very different things. If it was unclear, I am explicitly referring to the latter, which again is highly relative. A company full of dog lovers with a pet friendly office would have a high 'asshole score' to someone who is allergic to dogs while at the same time being highly appealing to some. Accommodating 'poor culture fits' in this hypothetical company would ruin the appeal for many who work there, negatively impacting business metrics like employee retention/acquisition.
      - 8y ago

throwaway080383 8y ago

I think someone can be toxic and tank morale and productivity for an entire team without being an asshole. E.g. a distrust of upper management bordering on paranoia.

fipple 8y ago

Hehe... maybe the Uber parallel is they were afraid to hire a non asshole due to fear of diluting their asshole culture.

hueving 8y ago

Asshole is mainly just a word for someone who doesn't fit your culture though. Being direct is seen as being an asshole in some cultures and being indirect is seen as being an asshole in others. Despite the vagueness of it, "culture fit" is making sure that you won't be considered an asshole by the existing team.

some_account 8y ago

50 year old programmer in the middle of an open office with 25 year olds bouncing balls around, playing loud music - bad culture fit. Foreign middle aged man who can't speak the language very good in an environment where native language is important - not a good culture fit. Female 25 year old in a group of 50 year old men who mostly wants to relax at work and are a bit awkward around young women - bad culture fit. Very outspoken social person who enjoys partying in the middle of senior bank personalities who are extremely detail oriented and introverted - bad culture fit. Just saying there is a lot of bad culture fits. It can be age, gender, race, personality and even appearance. Bad culture fit is everywhere. It's just not something we talk about very openly because it's not socially accepted. So we hide it under other reasons.

zoomablemind 8y ago
Shouldn't then the job descriptions just mention that so it's obvious for the applicant beforehand?
- 1337biz 8y ago
  That's actually a good point. If job discriptions had a short description of the team / company culture, it would weed out many non fitting candidates.
stcredzero 8y ago
50 year old programmer in the middle of an open office with 25 year olds bouncing balls around, playing loud music - bad culture fit. Really? I'm almost 50 and I'm in an office with a bunch of 20-somethings who like to yo-yo. Music is only on headphones, though. Female 25 year old in a group of 50 year old men who mostly wants to relax at work and are a bit awkward around young women - bad culture fit. That's very dependent on the particular people involved. I've been in plenty of contexts where 40 and 50-something men could relax with a 25 year old woman. (Traditional music.) In times past, such a circumstance was pretty normal. People have ways of creating temporary spaces, both exclusive and inclusive. Letting this happen in ways that are positive is how larger gatherings and groups of people are supposed to work. It's where we've mucked about with that, albeit sometimes with the best intentions, where dysfunctions have crept in.

RobertRoberts 8y ago

Recognizing cultural differences is important. Some cultures feel that being on time is vital to running a business properly. Other cultures see schedules as suggestions and not requirements. Imagine 50/50 split of these two cultures trying to agree on something as simple as when and how to run a weekly meeting?

chooseaname 8y ago

I think at some places it starts off as the "no asshole rule", but then as you start hiring more people like the rest of the team, that will lead to actual discrimination. If you have a team of early 30 somethings, they may not want a young 20 something or an older 40 something on the team because, well, they're not like the other team members. And it's not always explicitly "we don't want 40 somethings". It is simply implicit in the way you hire. But implicit or explicit, it's still wrong.