5 ms·

Ubers and Lyfts pay the $0.25 per gallon New York gas tax, plus sales tax on top of both state and federal gas taxes (tax on a tax), so they are paying for road

by pwned1 8y ago

Ubers and Lyfts pay the $0.25 per gallon New York gas tax, plus sales tax on top of both state and federal gas taxes (tax on a tax), so they are paying for road infrastructure, just like everyone else. It's important to note that public transit agencies don't pay gas tax, and a large portion of the federal highway fund is diverted to public transit agencies.

vkou 8y ago
Gas tax does not go nearly enough of the way to paying for infrastructure. Most road maintenance is paid for by property and income taxes. $0.25/gallon is peanuts. New York (State) consumed ~135 million barrels of gas last year. That's 1.35 billion dollars of gas taxes. (Less in reality, because some commercial uses are exempt from these taxes, or can deduct them as expenses.) The NY DOT's maintenance budget, alone is ~$4.5 billion USD. Not to mention another $7 billion earmarked for new construction. Increase the gas taxes to $2.5/gallon, and then I'll agree that road users, in aggregate, are paying their way, instead of freeriding.
- pwned1 8y ago
  Can you point to a budget for the NY DoT? I cant seem to find anything. The DoT web site is devoid of budgets and the state's web site doesn't help either.
  - vkou 8y ago
    I may be grossly misunderstanding the budget, but this is what I looked at. [1] > The FY 2018 Executive Budget recommends nearly $11.6 billion for the Department, an increase of $749.1 million over the FY 2017 budget. This year-to-year change primarily reflects new capital investments in transportation infrastructure. > Preventive Maintenance - Capital Projects Funds - Other $4,428 (million) [1] https://www.budget.ny.gov/pubs/archive/fy18archive/exec/agencyPresentations/appropData/TransportationDepartmentof.html https://www.budget.ny.gov/pubs/archive/fy18archive/exec/agen...
    - pwned1 8y ago
      I'm looking for the revenue side. I can't find that. How is the department funded?
      - vkou 8y ago
        Since the expenses of the department greatly exceed the revenue collected by the tax, arithmetic indicates that it has to be funded by some combination of the general state, and federal tax pools.
- kazinator 8y ago
  > Gas tax does not go nearly enough of the way to paying for infrastructure. Most road maintenance is paid for by property and income taxes. Ride hailing drivers pay income tax.
  - vkou 8y ago
    So do I, but my income doesn't come with direct traffic congestion and road wear externalities.
    - kazinator 8y ago
      And of course none of your income is spent on any groceries or other goods that arrive by truck. Motor vehicles could disappear overnight without a single inconvenience to you.
      - francisofascii 8y ago
        I don't see anyone here arguing for banning motor vehicles. But they should pay more to use the road than the pennies they pay now. Groceries could get cheaper, since the trucks would not be stuck in traffic as much.
      - vkou 8y ago
        I already pay for that, through taxes - by subsidizing inefficient uses of public resources. If some groceries (Which had to be trucked hundreds of miles to reach my table) became more expensive then other groceries (Which had to be trucked tens of miles to reach my table), I'd be able to discriminate between them, based on their cost, and, through my purchasing decisions, encourage more efficient use of public resources.
      - megaremote 8y ago
        Yes, because trucks and personal vehicles are the same thing? The infrastructure requires for all our trucks is 1% we have, because of all the people driving.
- nine_k 8y ago
  Is NY DOT known for frugal and efficient use of funds? (I don't know, so I'm asking. E.g. MTA is known for the opposite.)
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    MTA has many onerous labor issues that the NYS and NYC DOT don't need to deal with. They are reasonably efficient stewards of tax dollars. Most of their spending is at least partially federally funded, so they are subject to many layers of audit.
  - vkou 8y ago
    It doesn't really matter. Someone has to pay, and right now, it's taxpayers at large, as opposed to drivers in particular. [1] Its inefficiency would actually be a point in favor of shifting costs to direct users of infrastructure - it would incentivise a reduction in use (Of a service provided by an inefficient department.) [1] Yes, I know, gas taxes are regressive. This issue is a bit more complicated then I let on - but if we were to take a purely market economics approach, I feel that my points stand well.
francisofascii 8y ago
$0.25/gallon is roughly a penny a mile. Besides road maintenance, cars also get the right of way, add to the noise/air pollution, and add grave danger to pedestrians, all for a penny a mile.
- komali2 8y ago
  Since the things you just said apply equally across all cars per mile driven, regardless of the reason those cars are being driven (taxis, private, whatever), wouldn't the solution be "increase the gas tax" rather than "ban uber?"
  - francisofascii 8y ago
    Yes, not ban, just charge more, regardless of what type of car.
- Spivak 8y ago
  Other than the fact that it feels cheap and you think drivers deserve to pay more is there any reason that you believe $0.01/mi is too little? I mean it's about $1500 over the life of every car. Does a single passenger vehicle really cause more than $1500 worth of externalities?
  - francisofascii 8y ago
    Yes, absolutely. Ten years is a long time. I would argue much more than $1500.
  - astura 8y ago
    >Does a single passenger vehicle really cause more than $1500 worth of externalities? Far, far more than $1,500 over the lifetime of a car. The cost of the externalities are more than the cost of gas itself. https://www.spur.org/publications/urbanist-article/2005-09-01/estimating-external-costs-driving-san-francisco https://www.spur.org/publications/urbanist-article/2005-09-0...
sharkmerry 8y ago
Where did you find that out? When you google uber gas tax new york. Your comment is the top result. Heres what I did find, https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/03/19/higher-fee-uber-lyft-trips/438107002/ https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/alb... a per-ride fee. but doenst have a .25/gallon fee
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  The $0.25/gallon is charged at the pump. Everyone pays it, not just Ubers and taxis.

by pwned1 8y ago

vkou 8y ago

Gas tax does not go nearly enough of the way to paying for infrastructure. Most road maintenance is paid for by property and income taxes. $0.25/gallon is peanuts. New York (State) consumed ~135 million barrels of gas last year. That's 1.35 billion dollars of gas taxes. (Less in reality, because some commercial uses are exempt from these taxes, or can deduct them as expenses.) The NY DOT's maintenance budget, alone is ~$4.5 billion USD. Not to mention another $7 billion earmarked for new construction. Increase the gas taxes to $2.5/gallon, and then I'll agree that road users, in aggregate, are paying their way, instead of freeriding.

pwned1 8y ago
Can you point to a budget for the NY DoT? I cant seem to find anything. The DoT web site is devoid of budgets and the state's web site doesn't help either.
- vkou 8y ago
  I may be grossly misunderstanding the budget, but this is what I looked at. [1] > The FY 2018 Executive Budget recommends nearly $11.6 billion for the Department, an increase of $749.1 million over the FY 2017 budget. This year-to-year change primarily reflects new capital investments in transportation infrastructure. > Preventive Maintenance - Capital Projects Funds - Other $4,428 (million) [1] https://www.budget.ny.gov/pubs/archive/fy18archive/exec/agencyPresentations/appropData/TransportationDepartmentof.html https://www.budget.ny.gov/pubs/archive/fy18archive/exec/agen...
  - pwned1 8y ago
    I'm looking for the revenue side. I can't find that. How is the department funded?
    - vkou 8y ago
      Since the expenses of the department greatly exceed the revenue collected by the tax, arithmetic indicates that it has to be funded by some combination of the general state, and federal tax pools.
kazinator 8y ago
> Gas tax does not go nearly enough of the way to paying for infrastructure. Most road maintenance is paid for by property and income taxes. Ride hailing drivers pay income tax.
- vkou 8y ago
  So do I, but my income doesn't come with direct traffic congestion and road wear externalities.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    And of course none of your income is spent on any groceries or other goods that arrive by truck. Motor vehicles could disappear overnight without a single inconvenience to you.
    - francisofascii 8y ago
      I don't see anyone here arguing for banning motor vehicles. But they should pay more to use the road than the pennies they pay now. Groceries could get cheaper, since the trucks would not be stuck in traffic as much.
    - vkou 8y ago
      I already pay for that, through taxes - by subsidizing inefficient uses of public resources. If some groceries (Which had to be trucked hundreds of miles to reach my table) became more expensive then other groceries (Which had to be trucked tens of miles to reach my table), I'd be able to discriminate between them, based on their cost, and, through my purchasing decisions, encourage more efficient use of public resources.
    - megaremote 8y ago
      Yes, because trucks and personal vehicles are the same thing? The infrastructure requires for all our trucks is 1% we have, because of all the people driving.
nine_k 8y ago
Is NY DOT known for frugal and efficient use of funds? (I don't know, so I'm asking. E.g. MTA is known for the opposite.)
- Spooky23 8y ago
  MTA has many onerous labor issues that the NYS and NYC DOT don't need to deal with. They are reasonably efficient stewards of tax dollars. Most of their spending is at least partially federally funded, so they are subject to many layers of audit.
- vkou 8y ago
  It doesn't really matter. Someone has to pay, and right now, it's taxpayers at large, as opposed to drivers in particular. [1] Its inefficiency would actually be a point in favor of shifting costs to direct users of infrastructure - it would incentivise a reduction in use (Of a service provided by an inefficient department.) [1] Yes, I know, gas taxes are regressive. This issue is a bit more complicated then I let on - but if we were to take a purely market economics approach, I feel that my points stand well.

francisofascii 8y ago

$0.25/gallon is roughly a penny a mile. Besides road maintenance, cars also get the right of way, add to the noise/air pollution, and add grave danger to pedestrians, all for a penny a mile.

komali2 8y ago
Since the things you just said apply equally across all cars per mile driven, regardless of the reason those cars are being driven (taxis, private, whatever), wouldn't the solution be "increase the gas tax" rather than "ban uber?"
- francisofascii 8y ago
  Yes, not ban, just charge more, regardless of what type of car.
Spivak 8y ago
Other than the fact that it feels cheap and you think drivers deserve to pay more is there any reason that you believe $0.01/mi is too little? I mean it's about $1500 over the life of every car. Does a single passenger vehicle really cause more than $1500 worth of externalities?
- francisofascii 8y ago
  Yes, absolutely. Ten years is a long time. I would argue much more than $1500.
- astura 8y ago
  >Does a single passenger vehicle really cause more than $1500 worth of externalities? Far, far more than $1,500 over the lifetime of a car. The cost of the externalities are more than the cost of gas itself. https://www.spur.org/publications/urbanist-article/2005-09-01/estimating-external-costs-driving-san-francisco https://www.spur.org/publications/urbanist-article/2005-09-0...

sharkmerry 8y ago

Where did you find that out? When you google uber gas tax new york. Your comment is the top result. Heres what I did find, https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/03/19/higher-fee-uber-lyft-trips/438107002/ https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/alb... a per-ride fee. but doenst have a .25/gallon fee

CydeWeys 8y ago
The $0.25/gallon is charged at the pump. Everyone pays it, not just Ubers and taxis.