3 ms·

> For example, all the senior engineers I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're using hyperbole in two ways here: (a) you make a statement about all the seni

> For example, all the senior engineers I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're using hyperbole in two ways here: (a) you make a statement about all the senior engineers you know, and (b) that statement makes a rather extreme claim about how they evaluate candidates. I think using hyperbole is a mistake in this conversation because we're interested specifically in how common and how intense these phenomena are. (I don't mean to single you out. This thought has also occurred to me when reading other online discussions lately.)

mlthoughts2018 8y ago
It is sincerely not hyperbole. My company has 12 principal engineers including me, and in the meeting where we discuss interviewing and hiring, the anecdote I described above is literally the standard of discourse. I can’t be certain that the same would have applied to all senior engineers in other companies where I previously worked. But I did interact with dozens of other senior engineers over the years and it’s a remarkably constant phenomenon. It’s not surprising either. We all like to tell ourselves stories about how we embody the best ideals that a broader community espouses, even when the reality of our day to day behavior is different. That is why I chose the term myopia. I think it’s a symptom of the tech world wishing to be associated with generally progressive human values, but that where the rubber meets the road, the implied values of tech orgs are no better or no more exemplary of positive human values than any other field of business.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  It’s not surprising either. We all like to tell ourselves stories about how we embody the best ideals that a broader community espouses, even when the reality of our day to day behavior is different. That sometimes starts with a smaller community that takes such ideals seriously. It almost always ends with a much larger group that spouts those ideals but acts differently. the implied values of tech orgs are no better or no more exemplary of positive human values than any other field of business It's long been said that the practice of "Software Engineering" is more a technology heavy application of business and less like engineering.
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  I like your choice of the word myopia, because I think you've accurately captured one of the central problems in hiring. Rather than finding ways to accurately assess whether a person can do the job, grow in their career to benefit the future needs of the team and company, we instead look to more or less trick them using technical games and puzzles that generally have nothing to do with the work they will be doing. > I think it’s a symptom of the tech world wishing to be associated with generally progressive human values I'm having trouble parsing this part of your statement, but let me say that I think it is more a function of the personality types that get into software development and technology more broadly. Many of us are INTJ types (self included and yes I know that Myers-Briggs is bunk to many of you), and many of us have what was formerly called Aspbergers. In short, there are particular personality types that go into these fields, and those personality types fixate on details. So it isn't surprising that's how many then interview and expect their fellow team members to exhibit similar traits. Without going too far off tangent, I think this is often why this field is seen as combative towards women and non-white people, IE: it has less to do with a deliberate desire to exclude and more to do with the quirks of the people who enter this field.
hueving 8y ago
It's definitely not hyperbole, that's literally how companies like Google hire. Do an algorithm dance and get rejected/accepted based on that.

mlthoughts2018 8y ago

It is sincerely not hyperbole. My company has 12 principal engineers including me, and in the meeting where we discuss interviewing and hiring, the anecdote I described above is literally the standard of discourse. I can’t be certain that the same would have applied to all senior engineers in other companies where I previously worked. But I did interact with dozens of other senior engineers over the years and it’s a remarkably constant phenomenon. It’s not surprising either. We all like to tell ourselves stories about how we embody the best ideals that a broader community espouses, even when the reality of our day to day behavior is different. That is why I chose the term myopia. I think it’s a symptom of the tech world wishing to be associated with generally progressive human values, but that where the rubber meets the road, the implied values of tech orgs are no better or no more exemplary of positive human values than any other field of business.

stcredzero 8y ago
It’s not surprising either. We all like to tell ourselves stories about how we embody the best ideals that a broader community espouses, even when the reality of our day to day behavior is different. That sometimes starts with a smaller community that takes such ideals seriously. It almost always ends with a much larger group that spouts those ideals but acts differently. the implied values of tech orgs are no better or no more exemplary of positive human values than any other field of business It's long been said that the practice of "Software Engineering" is more a technology heavy application of business and less like engineering.
poulsbohemian 8y ago
I like your choice of the word myopia, because I think you've accurately captured one of the central problems in hiring. Rather than finding ways to accurately assess whether a person can do the job, grow in their career to benefit the future needs of the team and company, we instead look to more or less trick them using technical games and puzzles that generally have nothing to do with the work they will be doing. > I think it’s a symptom of the tech world wishing to be associated with generally progressive human values I'm having trouble parsing this part of your statement, but let me say that I think it is more a function of the personality types that get into software development and technology more broadly. Many of us are INTJ types (self included and yes I know that Myers-Briggs is bunk to many of you), and many of us have what was formerly called Aspbergers. In short, there are particular personality types that go into these fields, and those personality types fixate on details. So it isn't surprising that's how many then interview and expect their fellow team members to exhibit similar traits. Without going too far off tangent, I think this is often why this field is seen as combative towards women and non-white people, IE: it has less to do with a deliberate desire to exclude and more to do with the quirks of the people who enter this field.

hueving 8y ago

It's definitely not hyperbole, that's literally how companies like Google hire. Do an algorithm dance and get rejected/accepted based on that.