4 ms·

It wasn't Trumps administration that openly spied on Merkel... and she didn't do anything. Five Eyes will be never a friend of continental Europe, no matter wh

It wasn't Trumps administration that openly spied on Merkel... and she didn't do anything. Five Eyes will be never a friend of continental Europe, no matter what administration.

simonh 8y ago
Western countries have always spied on each other, jostling for position and influence. That is nothing new. Openly declaring hostile intent against an ally - that's new. I'm not sure if people in the US really understand how horrified everyone, of every political stripe are about Trump's behaviour towards us and the elected Republican leadership's complicity in it. It's not just about Trump anymore. He could be kicked out of office at the next election, sure. But the elected republican leadership, who have their own democratic mandate, are just rolling over and letting all this happen. If they can't be relied on now, they can't be relied on after Trump either. As a conservative Brit, that grew up politically during the titanic partnership between Reagan and Maggie, this is all bewilderingly horrible. I still remember the Falkland war and the way that, while it took the US a while to realise what was happening, in the end here was never any real question over here that we would be able to rely on the US in the end. I don't think that would have been substantially different under any subsequent US president even right up to Obama. But now? I don't think there is any such confidence. Can you imagine a British Prime Minister worrying about what Trump might tweet after we sank the Belgrano?
- fetbaffe 8y ago
  EU is not really the same as the UK, especially if UK is leaving the EU. Trumps criticism is against the EU, Trump is a nationalist, something he is scolded for by the left, but everyone wants to forget his nationalism when it fits the argument that he is anti-UK (or any other European country) And not to mention, Trumps "foe" comment was in regard to trading with EU, not a military conflict.
  - simonh 8y ago
    I'm perfectly aware he's a nationalist, why do you think I'm forgetting it? I'm concerned principally with what he's doing because of it. Trump's trade actions against the EU, including Britain, and other allies were on national security grounds. He's publicly sided with Putin against his own national security agencies. None of this is encouraging from a European perspective. Nobody is anticipating military conflict between the EU and US, but hostile acts via security agencies? Especially targeting trade and economic activities? Operations on that front that would have been inconceivable just a few years ago cannot be discounted.
- mistermann 8y ago
  > I'm not sure if people in the US really understand how horrified everyone, of every political stripe are about Trump's behaviour towards us and the elected Republican leadership's complicity in it. Is this a factual statement? What is the source? And I don't mean this in a snarky way, I mean it in a literal, epistemological sense. I regularly read, both in forums and in the headlines, that "everyone" believes certain "things", but whenever I did just a little into the details I almost inevitably find that in reality, there is an extremely wide variety of opinions. After all, life is extremely complicated. So, likewise, I am interested interested in reading a bit deeper into this particular fact so I can be a more informed voter.
  - simonh 8y ago
    Fair enough, loose terminology. Trump does have support over here, that's a fact, but bear in mind those quarters tend to be the nationalist end of the spectrum. Where in their priority list do Britain First people put Trump or the US? Not in first place, that's for sure. They're no happier with steel tariffs, cosying up to Putin, etc than anyone else. The best they can say is that he doesn't really mean it. But he's doing it, so that argument is really wearing pretty thin.
    - mistermann 8y ago
      And to all of this, I will once again ask the very same question: Are these statements factual? What are your sources? In a literal, epistemological sense, by what means did you obtain the information you have written in your comment? EDIT: And it appears I have once again deviated from the acceptable narrative and had my commenting privileges suspended for the day. This is how perceptions are managed.
      - simonh 8y ago
        I didn't down vote you or censure you, and I'm not trying to score points with this post. I suspect our fellow commenters are reacting negatively to what is perceived as pedantry. Every post here is implicitly representing the opinions and perceptions of the poster. My post was based on my immersion in British and European political culture and meida, and the opinions I read and hear through many different channels - newspaper and web news articles and opinion pieces, TV news and interviews, radio, etc. We are having a conversation, not posting peer reviewed fact checked academic papers. If you doubt or disagree with a post then it's much more effective and useful to others to provide reasons for your disagreement or counter-arguments and evidence. Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, this thread is off the home screen and effectively dead. We're just communicating with each other at this point, so I'm just trying to explain how the commenting culture works, as I understand it. Best regards.
fetbaffe 8y ago
And Merkel...Oh "Between 1999 and 2006, Germany’s federal intelligence service BND spied on around 2,000 targets at political institutions, international organizations, banks, companies and weapons producers in Austria, said daily Der Standard and weekly Profil." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-germany-spying/austria-calls-on-germany-to-clarify-spying-allegations-idUSKBN1JC0RU https://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-germany-spying/au... "A number of US businesses and government entities were being monitored by the German foreign intelligence agency, according to documents received by the German newspaper Der Spiegel. Between 1998 and 2006, several White House emails, phone, and fax numbers were reportedly tracked using a set of 4,000 keywords." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/germany-spying-white-house-merkel-intelligence-reports-a7803881.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... Rule of thumb - never trust spy agencies.
- lexs 8y ago
  Schröder was chancellor during that time. But still - never trust spy agencies.
  - fetbaffe 8y ago
    Correct, he was chancellor until 2005, Merkel was responsible for one year only.
yardie 8y ago
I’m not sure what she could do, openly. Demand an apology? Or work silently so that it wouldn’t happen again. I feel the later is the more likely action taken.
- vetinari 8y ago
  From Willy Wimmer interview in 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faL4zRUdQTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faL4zRUdQTA, segment from 1:03:28, very loose translation): --- Ken: Mr. Wimmer, can you imagine headlines "Vladimir Putin has listened to cellphone of the German chancellor for ten years"? Wimmer: That would lead to revolutionary situation in Germany. Ken: And if they would say "China runs a flat spy operation in Germany"? Wimmer: They are accused of that anyway. Ken: But why nothing happened after NSA affair? At first they said "we don't do such thing", then "we do it a will do it further". Wimmer: That's a question of national dignity. Ken: Do we still have it? Wimmer: You already answered that. Ken: Did I? Wimmer: By asking the question. If it happened anywhere else, we would definitely cut the contact. But the reality is, as you just described. Business as usual. --- Based on information from interviews like this, I think that nothing has happened, and no action was taken. US (correctly) assessed, that Germany can do nothing, and did what they wanted/needed/whatever. Germany can't do anything from it's position of weakness. If Germany wants to change that, the steps necessary do not take into account the past, current or future US administration. Only German interests.
  - Udo_Schmitz 8y ago
    Ken Jebsen is an anti-American, right wing conspiracy theorist Both he and Willy Wimmer toe the Kremlin line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KenFM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KenFM https://www.tagesspiegel.de/medien/juergen-elsaesser-und-sein-compact-magazin-ein-netzwerk-fuer-putin-und-pegida/12194382.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/medien/juergen-elsaesser-und-sei...
    - vetinari 8y ago
      Tagesspiel is a part of the Lügenpresse network. See how easy is to label someone? Address the points, do not ad-hominem the messenger. Wimmer spent decades in CDU, with results to show. He "toes the Kremlin line" because he disagreed with the wars in Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afghanistan, and we cannot have that.

It wasn't Trumps administration that openly spied on Merkel... and she didn't do anything. Five Eyes will be never a friend of continental Europe, no matter what administration.

simonh 8y ago

Western countries have always spied on each other, jostling for position and influence. That is nothing new. Openly declaring hostile intent against an ally - that's new. I'm not sure if people in the US really understand how horrified everyone, of every political stripe are about Trump's behaviour towards us and the elected Republican leadership's complicity in it. It's not just about Trump anymore. He could be kicked out of office at the next election, sure. But the elected republican leadership, who have their own democratic mandate, are just rolling over and letting all this happen. If they can't be relied on now, they can't be relied on after Trump either. As a conservative Brit, that grew up politically during the titanic partnership between Reagan and Maggie, this is all bewilderingly horrible. I still remember the Falkland war and the way that, while it took the US a while to realise what was happening, in the end here was never any real question over here that we would be able to rely on the US in the end. I don't think that would have been substantially different under any subsequent US president even right up to Obama. But now? I don't think there is any such confidence. Can you imagine a British Prime Minister worrying about what Trump might tweet after we sank the Belgrano?

fetbaffe 8y ago
EU is not really the same as the UK, especially if UK is leaving the EU. Trumps criticism is against the EU, Trump is a nationalist, something he is scolded for by the left, but everyone wants to forget his nationalism when it fits the argument that he is anti-UK (or any other European country) And not to mention, Trumps "foe" comment was in regard to trading with EU, not a military conflict.
- simonh 8y ago
  I'm perfectly aware he's a nationalist, why do you think I'm forgetting it? I'm concerned principally with what he's doing because of it. Trump's trade actions against the EU, including Britain, and other allies were on national security grounds. He's publicly sided with Putin against his own national security agencies. None of this is encouraging from a European perspective. Nobody is anticipating military conflict between the EU and US, but hostile acts via security agencies? Especially targeting trade and economic activities? Operations on that front that would have been inconceivable just a few years ago cannot be discounted.
mistermann 8y ago
> I'm not sure if people in the US really understand how horrified everyone, of every political stripe are about Trump's behaviour towards us and the elected Republican leadership's complicity in it. Is this a factual statement? What is the source? And I don't mean this in a snarky way, I mean it in a literal, epistemological sense. I regularly read, both in forums and in the headlines, that "everyone" believes certain "things", but whenever I did just a little into the details I almost inevitably find that in reality, there is an extremely wide variety of opinions. After all, life is extremely complicated. So, likewise, I am interested interested in reading a bit deeper into this particular fact so I can be a more informed voter.
- simonh 8y ago
  Fair enough, loose terminology. Trump does have support over here, that's a fact, but bear in mind those quarters tend to be the nationalist end of the spectrum. Where in their priority list do Britain First people put Trump or the US? Not in first place, that's for sure. They're no happier with steel tariffs, cosying up to Putin, etc than anyone else. The best they can say is that he doesn't really mean it. But he's doing it, so that argument is really wearing pretty thin.
  - mistermann 8y ago
    And to all of this, I will once again ask the very same question: Are these statements factual? What are your sources? In a literal, epistemological sense, by what means did you obtain the information you have written in your comment? EDIT: And it appears I have once again deviated from the acceptable narrative and had my commenting privileges suspended for the day. This is how perceptions are managed.
    - simonh 8y ago
      I didn't down vote you or censure you, and I'm not trying to score points with this post. I suspect our fellow commenters are reacting negatively to what is perceived as pedantry. Every post here is implicitly representing the opinions and perceptions of the poster. My post was based on my immersion in British and European political culture and meida, and the opinions I read and hear through many different channels - newspaper and web news articles and opinion pieces, TV news and interviews, radio, etc. We are having a conversation, not posting peer reviewed fact checked academic papers. If you doubt or disagree with a post then it's much more effective and useful to others to provide reasons for your disagreement or counter-arguments and evidence. Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, this thread is off the home screen and effectively dead. We're just communicating with each other at this point, so I'm just trying to explain how the commenting culture works, as I understand it. Best regards.

fetbaffe 8y ago

And Merkel...Oh "Between 1999 and 2006, Germany’s federal intelligence service BND spied on around 2,000 targets at political institutions, international organizations, banks, companies and weapons producers in Austria, said daily Der Standard and weekly Profil." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-germany-spying/austria-calls-on-germany-to-clarify-spying-allegations-idUSKBN1JC0RU https://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-germany-spying/au... "A number of US businesses and government entities were being monitored by the German foreign intelligence agency, according to documents received by the German newspaper Der Spiegel. Between 1998 and 2006, several White House emails, phone, and fax numbers were reportedly tracked using a set of 4,000 keywords." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/germany-spying-white-house-merkel-intelligence-reports-a7803881.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... Rule of thumb - never trust spy agencies.

lexs 8y ago
Schröder was chancellor during that time. But still - never trust spy agencies.
- fetbaffe 8y ago
  Correct, he was chancellor until 2005, Merkel was responsible for one year only.

yardie 8y ago

I’m not sure what she could do, openly. Demand an apology? Or work silently so that it wouldn’t happen again. I feel the later is the more likely action taken.

vetinari 8y ago
From Willy Wimmer interview in 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faL4zRUdQTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faL4zRUdQTA, segment from 1:03:28, very loose translation): --- Ken: Mr. Wimmer, can you imagine headlines "Vladimir Putin has listened to cellphone of the German chancellor for ten years"? Wimmer: That would lead to revolutionary situation in Germany. Ken: And if they would say "China runs a flat spy operation in Germany"? Wimmer: They are accused of that anyway. Ken: But why nothing happened after NSA affair? At first they said "we don't do such thing", then "we do it a will do it further". Wimmer: That's a question of national dignity. Ken: Do we still have it? Wimmer: You already answered that. Ken: Did I? Wimmer: By asking the question. If it happened anywhere else, we would definitely cut the contact. But the reality is, as you just described. Business as usual. --- Based on information from interviews like this, I think that nothing has happened, and no action was taken. US (correctly) assessed, that Germany can do nothing, and did what they wanted/needed/whatever. Germany can't do anything from it's position of weakness. If Germany wants to change that, the steps necessary do not take into account the past, current or future US administration. Only German interests.
- Udo_Schmitz 8y ago
  Ken Jebsen is an anti-American, right wing conspiracy theorist Both he and Willy Wimmer toe the Kremlin line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KenFM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KenFM https://www.tagesspiegel.de/medien/juergen-elsaesser-und-sein-compact-magazin-ein-netzwerk-fuer-putin-und-pegida/12194382.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/medien/juergen-elsaesser-und-sei...
  - vetinari 8y ago
    Tagesspiel is a part of the Lügenpresse network. See how easy is to label someone? Address the points, do not ad-hominem the messenger. Wimmer spent decades in CDU, with results to show. He "toes the Kremlin line" because he disagreed with the wars in Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afghanistan, and we cannot have that.