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> Money remained in the private economy rather than in the central budget? Is that your point here? My point was that Polish government is using nationalistic

• dexen 8y ago
  >Poland still has negative net change of population, and it's getting worse I'll buy a vacation house on the cheap/s. Also, try convincing the greens that it's a bad thing. Also, try convincing anybody that with growing population we'd somehow save our pension system. Or maybe we'll invite some immigrants from compatible cultures to work with us and integrate into the society. Oh well. >the government playing with fire and supporting antiliberal, nationalist, xenophobic propaganda Says the online panic. Liberalism is upheld, with pluralism; it's the "single political option or bust" mentality that gets rightfully criticized. Nationalism is what people want; you don't have to agree, but that's the price of living in democracy. Transferring that warm fuzzy feeling to the whole federal state of EU doesn't make it better or worse; it's just that - transferring it. "Xenophobic", nope; it's not "us vs them", it's "some ideas and cultures are specific threat by refusing to integrate, all others are welcome". Come on, don't you see the foreigners around you at work, at the mall, in the schools? Don't you have any immigrants in your social circles? >V4 votes differently than Poland on vast majority of sessions in EU parliament. Whole EU is made of countries with different economic and geopolitical interests, votes split and join all the time, and we manage a working consensus. You've just put forth example of the process working as expected, not of some sort of roadblock. What's the alternative - complete unity of opinions under one leadership? We've been there just a few decades ago, we don't want a repeat of that. Let's keep discussing and trying for the best option. That's how progress is made. >Any sort of V4 or "intermarrum" alliance as an alternative to (...) NATO is a pipedream. Wouldn't make geopolitical sense either. NATO is our best bet and we will stick with it, especially given the recently re-floated ideas of EU-ran army[1], which would effectively be an anty-brexit "police" stationed all over the EU. With no moderating influence from USofA, unlike NATO. As for V4 being an alternative to EU - I don't know. Maybe, hopefully. Better to make friends than to keep betting on one option that looks increasingly shaky. Especially as EU has this ugly habit of buying our allegiance with structural funds pumped into our economy, making us feel dependent on them. >[stats about public media] You show proportional representation in the public media of the governing fraction - back then, PO-PiS coalition, right now, PiS government. You made a point the public media reflecting the political reality. I naturally agree with you and chalk that down as system working as expected. Watch it change once the leading political fraction - as it always did. Worth repeating that Public media are the minority of media in here; the majority of viewership and readership are the private ones. >The problem is - Poland tried to prohibit some Holocaust truths as well. Was that fixed? Great, process works as expected. Ask for a lot, bargain some, settle on what you really wanted. Politics 101. >and you're still defending it I didn't, and never will. I value freedom of speech above state-enforced truth. I am unhappy with legislating what is the official truth. The whole point of my post was that we're on a better trajectory than other countries. Not perfect, better. Reliable process grounded in our centuries-long democratic traditions[3] over centrally-managed perfection. >> We still seem to hold higher plurality standards >No we don't. If you think we do please show data confirming it. We're having productive discussions across political aisles. We scream a lot, protest in Warsaw a lot, and continue to run the country. {edit}What we don't do is "don't talk to those people; deplatform those people; don't hire those people". For neither political, nor national/cultural factors of "those people". Which is a real problem in the internet-outrage-mob fueled countries{/edit} The political scene covers almost full left-to-right spectrum, and it is expected to swing the other way in an election cycle or two. We don't import antisemites en mass, and the immigrants here don't close up into enclaves; instead they live, work and play among us, speaking our language and marrying locally. The most popular subjects among my politically-active friends are healthcare, pension system, and internet freedoms. Those aren't left-right, or nationalist-internationalist subjects; those are economic bargains we want to tweak and improve. Or, hopefully, overhaul. EU and immigration are somewhat distant subjects exactly because we managed to minimize the impact.[2] {edit}We appreciate GDPR and open market and other goodies from EU in the same sitting we criticize immigration quotas and umpteenth copyright extension and other hare-brained ideas.{/edit} > Poland consistently scores worse than western Europe (especially than Scandinavian countries) Is your data showing Germany (re:Chemnitz) as unified and highly trusting their four-time PM? Is your data showing the french happy about soldiers patrolling the streets of Paris? Are the greeks and spanish trusting the government to run it efficiently and stand up to EU when proper to protect their interest? Are your sources glossing over the growing antisemitism in the west? Also, funny you should mention Scandinavia. How's that Swedish experiment with humanitarian superpower going? Please page me when our government issues civilians with leaflets on civil defense preparations. For now, concern dismissed with prejudice, due to biased sourcing. > [Godwin's law] Godwin's law. -- [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-angela-merkel-endorses-eu-military-plan/ https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-angela-merke... [2] I think a lot of people here gave up on the idea of government-ran highway system. Sad. [3] an enjoyable read at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17781330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17781330