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> I'm not convinced that centralization in its current iteration (cloud operators controlling huge infrastructures) is the best long run You might be intereste

by m3at 8y ago

> I'm not convinced that centralization in its current iteration (cloud operators controlling huge infrastructures) is the best long run You might be interested in checking the InterPlanetary File System [1] which attempt to tackle this among other issue. I can't find it now but I remember the doc mentioning the need for a future space network to be decentralized, so there is that too. [1] https://ipfs.io/#why https://ipfs.io/#why

frio 8y ago
From a conference I attended years ago, the key motivator is that request/response networking is pretty much already broken when we get to the moon; once Mars comes into the picture, it'll be even more so. When each TCP packet requires an ACK, and an ACK takes minutes to arrive... things break down a bit. So, the idea behind IPFS and others (SSB comes to mind, except, yacht-themed) is that it's largely a collection of offline networks, and when the planets align -- quite literally -- those networks will exchange all their new blocks. It's a neat concept.
- vlovich123 8y ago
  Each TCP packet does not require an ack, at least not as a "receive TCP packet send out ACK". They're returned collectively as a bitset for the last N packets instead based on your transmission window (which TCP stacks already tune based on your RTT). Can't see how you'd get rid of that if you're looking for reliable real-time transport medium. Additionally you can layer in forward error-correction above TCP to reduce packet loss due to the physical medium.
  - codeka 8y ago
    None of that really matters if Mars is on the other side of sun from Earth. You'd need relay satellites to direct the signal around the sun, and even at the speed of light that's going to take tens of minutes, one way. As the parents suggest, even at Earth-Moon distances, we need to completely rethink things.
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      So who cares? Just adapt the TCP timeouts (resend timeouts) to 10 minutes. We’ll end up with the same, TCP-based system, except it’s going to be somewhat different, as time scales are not invariant for us humans.
      - the_clarence 8y ago
        I just wanted to play counter strike with the mars people
        kakarot 8y ago
        You will have to attend community tournaments and compete locally for the chance to play against a Mars team over a high-bandwidth satellite array, possibly on a lunar base, possibly only during seasons of opposition between Earth and Mars. Even then, you will be playing on a specially-modified version of the game that disables server-side anticheat systems, instead relying on human referees.
      - collinmanderson 8y ago
        My guess is we'll just have local datacenters on mars for the big services (google, netflix, etc). And then more websites will use services like cloudflare so they can get their website cached on mars. AWS will eventually have a mars datacenter. No need for IPFS.
        basilgohar 8y ago
        This papers over the whole "relying on large cloud providers" issues in the first place. A decentralized system will ensure that websites won't need to rely on large, centralized powers beyond core infrastructure providers (which we have to fight to ensure are neutral parties, ala Net Neutrality) to avoid concentration of power to a select few.
        nielsole 8y ago
        While I agree with your assessment, it reminds me of the "flying horse carriage" view of the future. Wouldn't be surprised, if multiplanetary hosting would change things more generally.
  - bshanks 8y ago
    I'm not a networking expert, but imo i think that with extreme delays, you would not want a real-time transport medium at all. The higher-level protocols would be built on top of a non-real time substrate. You would want to have so much forward error-correction that you could remove ACK completely (perhaps a higher level protocol could still be used to request retransmission in the rare case of failure, e.g. one could request a web page be resent via HTTP, but the hypothetical TCP replacement under that would have no concept of ACK).
- int_19h 8y ago
  It's called "delay-tolerant networking", and we've been doing that for a long time - think Usenet.
- severine 8y ago
  > SSB comes to mind, except, yacht-themed I think this is a reference to Secure Scuttlebutt: http://scuttlebutt.nz/ http://scuttlebutt.nz/

by m3at 8y ago

frio 8y ago

From a conference I attended years ago, the key motivator is that request/response networking is pretty much already broken when we get to the moon; once Mars comes into the picture, it'll be even more so. When each TCP packet requires an ACK, and an ACK takes minutes to arrive... things break down a bit. So, the idea behind IPFS and others (SSB comes to mind, except, yacht-themed) is that it's largely a collection of offline networks, and when the planets align -- quite literally -- those networks will exchange all their new blocks. It's a neat concept.

vlovich123 8y ago
Each TCP packet does not require an ack, at least not as a "receive TCP packet send out ACK". They're returned collectively as a bitset for the last N packets instead based on your transmission window (which TCP stacks already tune based on your RTT). Can't see how you'd get rid of that if you're looking for reliable real-time transport medium. Additionally you can layer in forward error-correction above TCP to reduce packet loss due to the physical medium.
- codeka 8y ago
  None of that really matters if Mars is on the other side of sun from Earth. You'd need relay satellites to direct the signal around the sun, and even at the speed of light that's going to take tens of minutes, one way. As the parents suggest, even at Earth-Moon distances, we need to completely rethink things.
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    So who cares? Just adapt the TCP timeouts (resend timeouts) to 10 minutes. We’ll end up with the same, TCP-based system, except it’s going to be somewhat different, as time scales are not invariant for us humans.
    - the_clarence 8y ago
      I just wanted to play counter strike with the mars people
      - kakarot 8y ago
        You will have to attend community tournaments and compete locally for the chance to play against a Mars team over a high-bandwidth satellite array, possibly on a lunar base, possibly only during seasons of opposition between Earth and Mars. Even then, you will be playing on a specially-modified version of the game that disables server-side anticheat systems, instead relying on human referees.
    - collinmanderson 8y ago
      My guess is we'll just have local datacenters on mars for the big services (google, netflix, etc). And then more websites will use services like cloudflare so they can get their website cached on mars. AWS will eventually have a mars datacenter. No need for IPFS.
      - basilgohar 8y ago
        This papers over the whole "relying on large cloud providers" issues in the first place. A decentralized system will ensure that websites won't need to rely on large, centralized powers beyond core infrastructure providers (which we have to fight to ensure are neutral parties, ala Net Neutrality) to avoid concentration of power to a select few.
      - nielsole 8y ago
        While I agree with your assessment, it reminds me of the "flying horse carriage" view of the future. Wouldn't be surprised, if multiplanetary hosting would change things more generally.
- bshanks 8y ago
  I'm not a networking expert, but imo i think that with extreme delays, you would not want a real-time transport medium at all. The higher-level protocols would be built on top of a non-real time substrate. You would want to have so much forward error-correction that you could remove ACK completely (perhaps a higher level protocol could still be used to request retransmission in the rare case of failure, e.g. one could request a web page be resent via HTTP, but the hypothetical TCP replacement under that would have no concept of ACK).
int_19h 8y ago
It's called "delay-tolerant networking", and we've been doing that for a long time - think Usenet.
severine 8y ago
> SSB comes to mind, except, yacht-themed I think this is a reference to Secure Scuttlebutt: http://scuttlebutt.nz/ http://scuttlebutt.nz/