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> technologists actually know how much they're worth while the fresh college graduate etc is awestruck by a wage that is barely over bay-area poverty line I th

> technologists actually know how much they're worth while the fresh college graduate etc is awestruck by a wage that is barely over bay-area poverty line I think this was a key part of the racket: Faced with the need for engineers, employers offered very high entry-level wages for engineering positions. For most of the past 20 years, entry-level SWE pay was among the best you could hope for as a fresh graduate. However, once an engineer got into "the system", they became "captive audience", so wages could be frozen. Imagine a typical 35 year old engineer with 13 years of full-time programming experience. What's he going to do about his frozen wage? Go to medical school and become a physician instead? So engineers started at or close to $100k, but then got stuck in the narrow $100-150k band for the rest of their career. Like most unfair practices, this one worked... for a short time. Longer term, it was destructive and self-defeating: the smartest, most far-thinking college students did their research, saw that the entry level wages were appealing, but then they become stagnant. It's a bait-and-switch. Looks good from the outside, but after a few years, you start lagging far behind your peers who went to finance, medicine, business, etc. So they went into those fields instead. These are exactly the type of smart, capable, senior software engineer that all these clever employers wish they had right now. Congrats, you played yourselves.

scarface74 8y ago
Not every company needs smart capable senior engineers. If you are just doing yet another SAAS CRUD app, you may not need anymore than an architect and some mid level developers. Full stack developers are becoming a commodity. Most of the world’s developers aren’t doing anything that complicated. Yes I am a developer, and I command a slight market premium because of my architecture experience, but I am not the force multiplier that I was as a dev lead previously. I self demoted for a lot of reasons (for the same pay) but I know that my work isn’t as impactful.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  > Not every company needs smart capable senior engineers. If you are just doing yet another SAAS CRUD app, you may not need anymore than an architect and some mid level developers. Full stack developers are becoming a commodity. So you recognize even a single simple project like a single SAAS CRUD app requires at least one smart, capable, senior engineer (your architect). Also, I'd say you're overestimating my definition of "senior engineers". A senior engineer is someone who actually completed a project or two. Someone you can entrust with big chunks of development work and be reasonably sure they won't mess it up. Your "mid level developers" are likely senior by this standard, especially since the alternative, "a junior", typically means someone fresh out of college (or boot camp) with about 0 real world experience.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    A senior engineer is someone who actually completed a project or two. Someone you can entrust with big chunks of development work and be reasonably sure they won't mess it up. In that case would I have been considered a “senior developer” straight out of college since I was entrusted to create a fairly large system by myself in the mid 90s? I had spent close to 10 years by then as a hobbyist. If a person who has just completed a project or two and doesn’t know anything about designing large, scalable, maintainable, systems and doesn’t know anything about infrastructure is a “senior developer”, we really either have a horrible level of title inflation in the industry or we just call everyone senior but some are just more senior than others. I’ve been a software developer officially for over 20 years, but I know I really only have the last 10 years of experience and the first 10 or so were only worth about 2. That being said, I agree that any real experience as an individual contributor over 10 years, isn’t worth much for most corporations. On one hand, your salary does peak, but on the other hand, so does your value to the company. As an individual contributor, you only contribute X number of hours worth of semi-commoditized value to the company. As a team lead or technical manager, your knowledge can easily be multiplied across the organization.
tomatotomato37 8y ago
>but then got stuck in the narrow $100-150k Is it really stuck if you're making more than 70% of America? I'm sorry you can't afford a summer house in the Keys, but you have to accept different careers have maximum limits, and ours tops out a bit above rocket scientist.

scarface74 8y ago

Not every company needs smart capable senior engineers. If you are just doing yet another SAAS CRUD app, you may not need anymore than an architect and some mid level developers. Full stack developers are becoming a commodity. Most of the world’s developers aren’t doing anything that complicated. Yes I am a developer, and I command a slight market premium because of my architecture experience, but I am not the force multiplier that I was as a dev lead previously. I self demoted for a lot of reasons (for the same pay) but I know that my work isn’t as impactful.

dunpeal 8y ago
> Not every company needs smart capable senior engineers. If you are just doing yet another SAAS CRUD app, you may not need anymore than an architect and some mid level developers. Full stack developers are becoming a commodity. So you recognize even a single simple project like a single SAAS CRUD app requires at least one smart, capable, senior engineer (your architect). Also, I'd say you're overestimating my definition of "senior engineers". A senior engineer is someone who actually completed a project or two. Someone you can entrust with big chunks of development work and be reasonably sure they won't mess it up. Your "mid level developers" are likely senior by this standard, especially since the alternative, "a junior", typically means someone fresh out of college (or boot camp) with about 0 real world experience.
- scarface74 8y ago
  A senior engineer is someone who actually completed a project or two. Someone you can entrust with big chunks of development work and be reasonably sure they won't mess it up. In that case would I have been considered a “senior developer” straight out of college since I was entrusted to create a fairly large system by myself in the mid 90s? I had spent close to 10 years by then as a hobbyist. If a person who has just completed a project or two and doesn’t know anything about designing large, scalable, maintainable, systems and doesn’t know anything about infrastructure is a “senior developer”, we really either have a horrible level of title inflation in the industry or we just call everyone senior but some are just more senior than others. I’ve been a software developer officially for over 20 years, but I know I really only have the last 10 years of experience and the first 10 or so were only worth about 2. That being said, I agree that any real experience as an individual contributor over 10 years, isn’t worth much for most corporations. On one hand, your salary does peak, but on the other hand, so does your value to the company. As an individual contributor, you only contribute X number of hours worth of semi-commoditized value to the company. As a team lead or technical manager, your knowledge can easily be multiplied across the organization.

tomatotomato37 8y ago

>but then got stuck in the narrow $100-150k Is it really stuck if you're making more than 70% of America? I'm sorry you can't afford a summer house in the Keys, but you have to accept different careers have maximum limits, and ours tops out a bit above rocket scientist.