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I didn't remember hearing about choline before.. I'm vegan so I looked into it.[0] "Humans make a small amount of choline in the liver. ..no reports of choline

I didn't remember hearing about choline before.. I'm vegan so I looked into it.[0] "Humans make a small amount of choline in the liver. ..no reports of choline deficiency in the general population... the choline made by the body (assuming a dietary intake of zero) may be enough" There are many plant sources. So not sure why you're saying choline can't be gotten from vegan sources. That seems both untrue and misleading (It seems nobody may need to get choline from food sources) B12 is a different matter, but as it seems a standard additive to soy milk, which I often have on breakfast cereal, I've never worried about that either. No supplements needed. (Anecdata: I've been going strong for almost 30 years of vegan diet) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline#Dietary_sources_of_choline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline#Dietary_sources_of_cho...

dfee 8y ago
> Humans make a small amount of choline in the liver. I thought old “Element 17” was made by fusion in stars. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_nucleosynthesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_nucleosynthesis <Oops: choline not chlorine!>
- gphilip 8y ago
  It's "choline", not "chlorine". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline
- wincy 8y ago
  That’s “chlorine”, not to be confused with “choline”
gralx 8y ago
I didn't say choline cannot be gotten from vegan foods. I'm saying, rather, that I was conservative in my sources for daily recommended micronutrient amounts, and the amount of choline those sources recommended were impossible to obtain from food sources given in the USDA database, which is the international standard for the nutrient composition of foods. As an example of such a source, see tsmoctl's first link in this same thread to a US Department of Health & Human Services article on choline. Its authorship alone would have justified choline's inclusion in my database, though I acknowledge the National Institutes of Health may not be correct in their assertion. One can be micronutrient deficient and still be athletic or observably healthy. Nutrient deficiency is not a guarantee of disease; it merely increases the likelihood of disease. Or you may be right about choline, and the NIS may well be wrong. EDIT: I consider food additives to be supplements, such as vitamin B12 to soy milk. If you don't, then our disagreement on the point of vegans requiring supplements is a semantic one.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  All recommended micronutrients can be had from non-meat, non-dairy foods except two I can't really detect the difference between that and choline cannot be gotten from vegan foods. Or you may be right about choline, and the NIS may well be wrong. Passive-aggressive snark is still snark. You made it sound like vegans need to take 2 different vitamin supplements, on top of their diet. I'm no expert, as I made clear in my opening words. What you said just sounded wrong. And it seems it was. If you then say what you had meant to say, speaking more carefully, great. But don't act like you're just saying the same thing and I misunderstood the first time.
  - gralx 8y ago
    I made my assumptions plain before making the first statement you quote about micronutrients, and I have no problem if you disagree with those assumptions. They're arguable. I used conservative sources for my database as a way to minimize research without losing confidence in my results. The toxicity of choline is known, and if I'm well below that level but at or above the level recommended by conservative scientific groups, I'm reasonably confident that my diet is healthy. Do you disagree when I say that the NIS may be wrong? I was sincere. Much greater follies of academic consensus have occurred in the past than overstating the dietary importance of some micronutrient.

dfee 8y ago

> Humans make a small amount of choline in the liver. I thought old “Element 17” was made by fusion in stars. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_nucleosynthesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_nucleosynthesis <Oops: choline not chlorine!>

gphilip 8y ago
It's "choline", not "chlorine". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline
wincy 8y ago
That’s “chlorine”, not to be confused with “choline”

gralx 8y ago

I didn't say choline cannot be gotten from vegan foods. I'm saying, rather, that I was conservative in my sources for daily recommended micronutrient amounts, and the amount of choline those sources recommended were impossible to obtain from food sources given in the USDA database, which is the international standard for the nutrient composition of foods. As an example of such a source, see tsmoctl's first link in this same thread to a US Department of Health & Human Services article on choline. Its authorship alone would have justified choline's inclusion in my database, though I acknowledge the National Institutes of Health may not be correct in their assertion. One can be micronutrient deficient and still be athletic or observably healthy. Nutrient deficiency is not a guarantee of disease; it merely increases the likelihood of disease. Or you may be right about choline, and the NIS may well be wrong. EDIT: I consider food additives to be supplements, such as vitamin B12 to soy milk. If you don't, then our disagreement on the point of vegans requiring supplements is a semantic one.

yesenadam 8y ago
All recommended micronutrients can be had from non-meat, non-dairy foods except two I can't really detect the difference between that and choline cannot be gotten from vegan foods. Or you may be right about choline, and the NIS may well be wrong. Passive-aggressive snark is still snark. You made it sound like vegans need to take 2 different vitamin supplements, on top of their diet. I'm no expert, as I made clear in my opening words. What you said just sounded wrong. And it seems it was. If you then say what you had meant to say, speaking more carefully, great. But don't act like you're just saying the same thing and I misunderstood the first time.
- gralx 8y ago
  I made my assumptions plain before making the first statement you quote about micronutrients, and I have no problem if you disagree with those assumptions. They're arguable. I used conservative sources for my database as a way to minimize research without losing confidence in my results. The toxicity of choline is known, and if I'm well below that level but at or above the level recommended by conservative scientific groups, I'm reasonably confident that my diet is healthy. Do you disagree when I say that the NIS may be wrong? I was sincere. Much greater follies of academic consensus have occurred in the past than overstating the dietary importance of some micronutrient.