4 ms·

I'm gonna give the answer you don't wanna hear, and that is incredibly unpopular on HN and really any left of center arena. Israel has not forgotten the humani

by vxNsr 8y ago

I'm gonna give the answer you don't wanna hear, and that is incredibly unpopular on HN and really any left of center arena. Israel has not forgotten the humanity of the palestinians(1). It has not striped them of their human rights(2) and it has not passed laws that "could affect minorities."(3) (1) Israel takes great care to protect all human life in any conflict and tries especially hard not remove the dignity of or prejudge people who are bent on murdering its people. When rockets are being launched from hospitals and "army" headquarters are in the backrooms of pre-nurseries innocent civilians and children will be caught in the crossfire, whether it's mortar misfires or drone counter attacks. Anyone asking about the imbalance in death counts is really just a dog whistle for "why don't more jews die". When you have an entire city refusing to give up the names of the people responsible for the stabbing and cold blooded murder of a 1 year baby in it's crib (along with the rest of the family) or the kidnapping and murder of 3 teenagers, it may appear like the Israelis don't care about those whose house they are turning upside down but in reality they could just raze the city in a matter of minutes like Assad does in Syria, or SA reacts in Yemen. the fact is that Israel does its utmost to avoid loss of life while being stabbed from behind by Hamas and being led-on by the PLO who do not want peace and are doing everything to destabilize the region at every turn. (2) The laws here are not so clear cut, but at the very least Israel is not responsible to give people living in what is essentially another country free access to its own services, if that means 3 hour long lines because a visa process has been proven ineffective at preventing terrorist attacks then so be it. I'm not really sure if you have anything specific in mind here but until you can show how Israel is stripping people of human rights I don't know what else I can say. (3) This law is no different from many laws that exist across the European and Asian continents. If you would like to argue that all those laws are racist, I wouldn't agree with you, but by singling out Israel for special scrutiny and failing to mention them on a discussion that in fact is about the rise of racism in European countries, you do appear to be guilty of at least some anti-semitic sentiment. I'm not arguing that Israel is faultless but the way you've tried to frame the argument appears at least ignorant or else decidedly malicious.

Udik 8y ago
> (1) Israel takes great care to protect all human life in any conflict For example by having snipers shooting unarmed protesters, women, children, journalists. Sometimes they kill them, but preferably they hit them in the thighs: many of the injured will lose a leg or be in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives. > "why don't more jews die". Yes, how many innocent Palestinian lives is an Israeli life worth, exactly? > Israel is not responsible to give people living in what is essentially another country free access to its own services You're lying. Queues are to move between one city and the other inside the West Bank. Israel has cut the Palestinian territory into little controllable pieces, building a wall inside that territory and around their illegal settlements. Finally, while the Palestinian minority is essentially just tolerated in Israel, what makes Israel an apartheid state is their treatment of both populations outside its borders: citizens if they are Jews, people without any right if they are Palestinians. Your house or your entire village might be razed to the ground, fanatic settlers can fence off your land or take your home, or build entire roads or cities where you're not allowed to enter. And if you protest, it's the military court for you- while Jews are subject to a normal tribunal.
- edanm 8y ago
  I disagree with most of your post, which I don't think accurately portrays the behavior of Israel. I mean, Israel does a lot of bad things, as do many countries, but it is by no means the standard. And a lot of times, things are reported inaccurately, by e.g. talking about unarmed civilians being shot, when it later turns out that most of the people shot were in fact armed (or among armed protesters). > Finally, while the Palestinian minority is essentially just tolerated in Israel, what makes Israel an apartheid state is their treatment of both populations outside its borders: citizens if they are Jews, people without any right if they are Palestinians I mean, this is literally what every country does though - US citizens have rights in the US, and everyone else doesn't. English citizens have rights in England, and everyone else doesn't. (And to prevent other people being pedantic - of course other people do have rights and I'm not being literal, but Palestinians also have rights in Israel, so you're not being literal here either). If your concern is with Israel singling out Jews as the only ones that are automatically citizens of Israel, that's a valid concern, but it does not make Israel an apartheid state, any more than if England decided that anyone who can prove that in the last 5 generations had English ancestors, was automatically an English citizen. And I'd argue that it's a completely valid and moral thing to do to create a state that automatically makes all Jews citizens - considering the reasoning for the existence of such a state in the first place. Hell, I'd rather live in a world in which the fact that I am Jewish doesn't mean that I have to protect myself from other people - I'd rather an ethnicity-blind world. But unfortunately, I don't live in that world, so I think it's very valid for me to want to be part of a country in which I will not be discriminated against.
Latteland 8y ago
I'm sure it's incredibly difficult to defend your country against endless attacks and probing for weaknesses, as Israel faces. But I think they aren't doing a good job protecting the lives of non-combatants like the Palestinian protesters who have been killed over and over again, met with live fire, as happened this summer. It's just not acceptable to shoot relatively indiscriminately into crowded areas when you aren't under immediate attack. I've never really heard any explanation about why shooting hundreds of people, including aid workers is necessary. Here's an article I found at Reuters that talks about some of these things. The situation looks like a border defense area, and there has probably been shelling and the shots toward the station. There's some kind of fence, and at this time there are many hundreds to a thousand protesters. They approach the fence. You can't just shoot them. You've got to figure out how to control you military and not just maim protesters. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests-shooting/israeli-forces-kill-three-gaza-border-protesters-wound-600-medics-idUSKBN1HY205 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-prote...
- vxNsr 8y ago
  > I'm sure it's incredibly difficult to defend your country against endless attacks I'm not Israeli. I just find the left leaning dialog on this topic to myopic and one sided. > as happened this summer It was shown following an investigation that most of those killed with live fire were in fact armed terrorists. There was no "relative indiscriminate shooting into a crowded area." There was targeted sniper fire at terrorist hiding among agitated people intent on breaking through a recognized border in an attempt to do real bodily harm to Israeli citizens. The fact that you've phrased things the way you have makes it pretty clear that you do not in anyway believe that Jews have a right to life. In addition this was in no way a peaceful protest of civilians, it was an angry mob that was flinging molotov cocktails, burning and bomb laden kites and balloons, burning tires and all sorts of other things in an attempt to break through a designated border area that they were repeatedly warned away from. There was a "nurse" who turned out to be throwing grenades who was shot but for a good 48 hours the left-leaning publications ran with a story that the Israelis had killed her in cold blood until the video was released of her throwing grenades. There was video of a child "shot and killed" who was later "shot and killed" again in different clothing before being seen in a later video getting up from the ambulance and walking away. More innocent civilians have been killed in the ukrainian civil war in the last two years than by Israel in the last 10. > You've got to figure out how to control you military and not just maim protesters. The military is under rigid control, so much so that their lives are often in the balance because they're afraid to use the necessary force for fear of unfounded international condemnation.

by vxNsr 8y ago

Udik 8y ago

> (1) Israel takes great care to protect all human life in any conflict For example by having snipers shooting unarmed protesters, women, children, journalists. Sometimes they kill them, but preferably they hit them in the thighs: many of the injured will lose a leg or be in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives. > "why don't more jews die". Yes, how many innocent Palestinian lives is an Israeli life worth, exactly? > Israel is not responsible to give people living in what is essentially another country free access to its own services You're lying. Queues are to move between one city and the other inside the West Bank. Israel has cut the Palestinian territory into little controllable pieces, building a wall inside that territory and around their illegal settlements. Finally, while the Palestinian minority is essentially just tolerated in Israel, what makes Israel an apartheid state is their treatment of both populations outside its borders: citizens if they are Jews, people without any right if they are Palestinians. Your house or your entire village might be razed to the ground, fanatic settlers can fence off your land or take your home, or build entire roads or cities where you're not allowed to enter. And if you protest, it's the military court for you- while Jews are subject to a normal tribunal.

edanm 8y ago
I disagree with most of your post, which I don't think accurately portrays the behavior of Israel. I mean, Israel does a lot of bad things, as do many countries, but it is by no means the standard. And a lot of times, things are reported inaccurately, by e.g. talking about unarmed civilians being shot, when it later turns out that most of the people shot were in fact armed (or among armed protesters). > Finally, while the Palestinian minority is essentially just tolerated in Israel, what makes Israel an apartheid state is their treatment of both populations outside its borders: citizens if they are Jews, people without any right if they are Palestinians I mean, this is literally what every country does though - US citizens have rights in the US, and everyone else doesn't. English citizens have rights in England, and everyone else doesn't. (And to prevent other people being pedantic - of course other people do have rights and I'm not being literal, but Palestinians also have rights in Israel, so you're not being literal here either). If your concern is with Israel singling out Jews as the only ones that are automatically citizens of Israel, that's a valid concern, but it does not make Israel an apartheid state, any more than if England decided that anyone who can prove that in the last 5 generations had English ancestors, was automatically an English citizen. And I'd argue that it's a completely valid and moral thing to do to create a state that automatically makes all Jews citizens - considering the reasoning for the existence of such a state in the first place. Hell, I'd rather live in a world in which the fact that I am Jewish doesn't mean that I have to protect myself from other people - I'd rather an ethnicity-blind world. But unfortunately, I don't live in that world, so I think it's very valid for me to want to be part of a country in which I will not be discriminated against.

Latteland 8y ago

I'm sure it's incredibly difficult to defend your country against endless attacks and probing for weaknesses, as Israel faces. But I think they aren't doing a good job protecting the lives of non-combatants like the Palestinian protesters who have been killed over and over again, met with live fire, as happened this summer. It's just not acceptable to shoot relatively indiscriminately into crowded areas when you aren't under immediate attack. I've never really heard any explanation about why shooting hundreds of people, including aid workers is necessary. Here's an article I found at Reuters that talks about some of these things. The situation looks like a border defense area, and there has probably been shelling and the shots toward the station. There's some kind of fence, and at this time there are many hundreds to a thousand protesters. They approach the fence. You can't just shoot them. You've got to figure out how to control you military and not just maim protesters. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests-shooting/israeli-forces-kill-three-gaza-border-protesters-wound-600-medics-idUSKBN1HY205 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-prote...

vxNsr 8y ago
> I'm sure it's incredibly difficult to defend your country against endless attacks I'm not Israeli. I just find the left leaning dialog on this topic to myopic and one sided. > as happened this summer It was shown following an investigation that most of those killed with live fire were in fact armed terrorists. There was no "relative indiscriminate shooting into a crowded area." There was targeted sniper fire at terrorist hiding among agitated people intent on breaking through a recognized border in an attempt to do real bodily harm to Israeli citizens. The fact that you've phrased things the way you have makes it pretty clear that you do not in anyway believe that Jews have a right to life. In addition this was in no way a peaceful protest of civilians, it was an angry mob that was flinging molotov cocktails, burning and bomb laden kites and balloons, burning tires and all sorts of other things in an attempt to break through a designated border area that they were repeatedly warned away from. There was a "nurse" who turned out to be throwing grenades who was shot but for a good 48 hours the left-leaning publications ran with a story that the Israelis had killed her in cold blood until the video was released of her throwing grenades. There was video of a child "shot and killed" who was later "shot and killed" again in different clothing before being seen in a later video getting up from the ambulance and walking away. More innocent civilians have been killed in the ukrainian civil war in the last two years than by Israel in the last 10. > You've got to figure out how to control you military and not just maim protesters. The military is under rigid control, so much so that their lives are often in the balance because they're afraid to use the necessary force for fear of unfounded international condemnation.