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"Locate offices in reasonable COL US markets" But... the savings won't be that much. I mean, for normal people it would be, but imagine you have a bonus tied

"Locate offices in reasonable COL US markets" But... the savings won't be that much. I mean, for normal people it would be, but imagine you have a bonus tied to a % of cost savings. Do you propose something which might bring about a 20% cost savings? Or a 75% savings? Of course, I just pulled those numbers out of thin air, but the cost of, say, mid-level developers in SF isn't going to drop significantly, moving to a reasonably-high-tech hub. The base salary cost may go down < 20%, but any other attendant benefits (insurance, retirement, etc) don't go away, just might be shifted a few % - or might even go up(?)

closeparen 8y ago
Even if you paid the same, you'd have many more engineers willing to enter or stay in situations where they can afford to raise families at middle-class standards, not crowd into decrepit roommate situations.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  How have you tested this hypothesis? I have tried to hire in low COL places and people want to move to SF instead. That’s fine, but there aren’t that many people in these other places.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    Have you tried asking SF people to relocate to those places? Because I and most of my coworkers say we would do so easily. I hear the complaint about not finding local engineers in those places. Thing is, we don't find any local engineers in SF either. Maybe 2-3 people out of 100. Everyone else is a <5 year transplant, relocated either by us or their previous employer. We have more people from the same random Chinese high school than from California.
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      That and local acquisitions are how we’ve done it. But very few want to go anywhere. Mostly it’s for family. It’s fine but it hasn’t helped anything.
    - rifung 8y ago
      I think senior engineers are probably the hardest to hire for and also the most important, and they usually have families and a house so I suspect it's not as easy for them to relocate. At least that's my impression given how many of my senior coworkers have absurd commutes as they continue to live in the same house they had before joining.
      - closeparen 8y ago
        Senior Engineer is what, 3, 5, 7 years in? I expect most people to accrue 2 promotions well before they get married, have kids, and buy houses. People at that stage of life at my company are usually pretty advanced on the management ladder.
        mgkimsal 8y ago
        When did "senior engineer" start meaning "3 years experience"?
        closeparen 8y ago
        It means “2 promotions in” and it’s not unheard of for a high performer to earn one of those every couple of years. I agree it’s weird to invoke the word senior so early in the job ladder... I would expect 3-4 more rungs where Eng II currently sits.
        gaius 8y ago
        The industry is awash with 23-year-old "senior engineers" who think senior means "on my second JS framework".
        closeparen 8y ago
        Unless you're at the tiniest of startups, no one picks their own title.
        gaius 8y ago
    - TulliusCicero 8y ago
      > Have you tried asking SF people to relocate to those places? Because I and most of my coworkers say we would do so easily. You probably wouldn't, though. You're probably not going to relocate to Tulsa or St. Louis or wherever, because once you start looking at the decision seriously, you're going to realize that even if this one particular company has attractive jobs there, if you ever want to leave or get laid off or whatnot, the rest of the job market there ain't so great. It's the kind of thing that sounds great initially, but starts to fall apart upon deeper analysis.
      - closeparen 8y ago
        So what? You can just move again. The ability to put down roots as long as your job holds is better than no ability to put down roots at all.
        imron 8y ago
        Works well if you don't have a family.
        closeparen 8y ago
        Well sure, if you're already paid well enough to have a family in the Bay Area, discussion about compensation/COL anxiety is moot. Only people I know who can make that work have either doctors or other software engineers for spouses.
        imron 8y ago
        Sure but the grandparent post is talking about moving to a low cost of living city for some company, and then some years later that company downsizing or closing and laying people off, and then not having many other similar employment options available. So if you move, start a family because you can now afford it, and then lose your job 5 years later, you're going to be less mobile and also limited by job options.
      - csutter 8y ago
  - wolco 8y ago
    Because they are paid more in sf. Hire remotely spend the extra $ on talent.
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      If it’s comp, then rejections would happen at initial pay band discussion or final offer. Numbers on Glassdoor for us look good. But instead I have very few leads whose work is interesting or who do well in the interview process. Frequently, they want to move to SF anyway. They tell the recruiter that. Honestly, comp numbers are past the point on Maslow’s pyramid where they can get someone to care. If you’re not going to get a guy for $350k but you can get him for $700k, he’s not planning on sticking around and he can’t produce $1.5m of value in his one year that he’ll stay for the payout. Few people are like that. It doesn’t make sense to optimize for that.
      - closeparen 8y ago
        I would expect this from people who have not experienced SF yet. The opportunity I'm suggesting is among people who are currently in SF and disillusioned with it.
        scarejunba 8y ago
        That’s fair, and I get it. I just don’t have that many people like that working with me and I work with people from 22 to 45 years of age. Seriously, I’ve had people move from here to Texas or Washington, and they keep the straight bump in wages that comes from not paying state tax. But that’s a single digit number out of a 100+ team. It isn’t helping expand the team.
  - pjungwir 8y ago
    > I have tried to hire in low COL places and people want to move to SF instead. In another comment you suggest that you'd pay $350k, but at $700k you would suspect their loyalty. I'm in Portland and not interested in moving to SF, and if you're offering $350 - $700k comp I'd be happy to talk with you. :-)
mpweiher 8y ago
I think the OP's point wasn't "cost savings" but "getting developers" by giving them what they want.

closeparen 8y ago

Even if you paid the same, you'd have many more engineers willing to enter or stay in situations where they can afford to raise families at middle-class standards, not crowd into decrepit roommate situations.

scarejunba 8y ago
How have you tested this hypothesis? I have tried to hire in low COL places and people want to move to SF instead. That’s fine, but there aren’t that many people in these other places.
- closeparen 8y ago
  Have you tried asking SF people to relocate to those places? Because I and most of my coworkers say we would do so easily. I hear the complaint about not finding local engineers in those places. Thing is, we don't find any local engineers in SF either. Maybe 2-3 people out of 100. Everyone else is a <5 year transplant, relocated either by us or their previous employer. We have more people from the same random Chinese high school than from California.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    That and local acquisitions are how we’ve done it. But very few want to go anywhere. Mostly it’s for family. It’s fine but it hasn’t helped anything.
  - rifung 8y ago
    I think senior engineers are probably the hardest to hire for and also the most important, and they usually have families and a house so I suspect it's not as easy for them to relocate. At least that's my impression given how many of my senior coworkers have absurd commutes as they continue to live in the same house they had before joining.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      Senior Engineer is what, 3, 5, 7 years in? I expect most people to accrue 2 promotions well before they get married, have kids, and buy houses. People at that stage of life at my company are usually pretty advanced on the management ladder.
      - mgkimsal 8y ago
        When did "senior engineer" start meaning "3 years experience"?
        closeparen 8y ago
        It means “2 promotions in” and it’s not unheard of for a high performer to earn one of those every couple of years. I agree it’s weird to invoke the word senior so early in the job ladder... I would expect 3-4 more rungs where Eng II currently sits.
        gaius 8y ago
        The industry is awash with 23-year-old "senior engineers" who think senior means "on my second JS framework".
        closeparen 8y ago
        Unless you're at the tiniest of startups, no one picks their own title.
        gaius 8y ago
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    > Have you tried asking SF people to relocate to those places? Because I and most of my coworkers say we would do so easily. You probably wouldn't, though. You're probably not going to relocate to Tulsa or St. Louis or wherever, because once you start looking at the decision seriously, you're going to realize that even if this one particular company has attractive jobs there, if you ever want to leave or get laid off or whatnot, the rest of the job market there ain't so great. It's the kind of thing that sounds great initially, but starts to fall apart upon deeper analysis.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      So what? You can just move again. The ability to put down roots as long as your job holds is better than no ability to put down roots at all.
      - imron 8y ago
        Works well if you don't have a family.
        closeparen 8y ago
        Well sure, if you're already paid well enough to have a family in the Bay Area, discussion about compensation/COL anxiety is moot. Only people I know who can make that work have either doctors or other software engineers for spouses.
        imron 8y ago
        Sure but the grandparent post is talking about moving to a low cost of living city for some company, and then some years later that company downsizing or closing and laying people off, and then not having many other similar employment options available. So if you move, start a family because you can now afford it, and then lose your job 5 years later, you're going to be less mobile and also limited by job options.
    - csutter 8y ago
- wolco 8y ago
  Because they are paid more in sf. Hire remotely spend the extra $ on talent.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    If it’s comp, then rejections would happen at initial pay band discussion or final offer. Numbers on Glassdoor for us look good. But instead I have very few leads whose work is interesting or who do well in the interview process. Frequently, they want to move to SF anyway. They tell the recruiter that. Honestly, comp numbers are past the point on Maslow’s pyramid where they can get someone to care. If you’re not going to get a guy for $350k but you can get him for $700k, he’s not planning on sticking around and he can’t produce $1.5m of value in his one year that he’ll stay for the payout. Few people are like that. It doesn’t make sense to optimize for that.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      I would expect this from people who have not experienced SF yet. The opportunity I'm suggesting is among people who are currently in SF and disillusioned with it.
      - scarejunba 8y ago
        That’s fair, and I get it. I just don’t have that many people like that working with me and I work with people from 22 to 45 years of age. Seriously, I’ve had people move from here to Texas or Washington, and they keep the straight bump in wages that comes from not paying state tax. But that’s a single digit number out of a 100+ team. It isn’t helping expand the team.
- pjungwir 8y ago
  > I have tried to hire in low COL places and people want to move to SF instead. In another comment you suggest that you'd pay $350k, but at $700k you would suspect their loyalty. I'm in Portland and not interested in moving to SF, and if you're offering $350 - $700k comp I'd be happy to talk with you. :-)

mpweiher 8y ago

I think the OP's point wasn't "cost savings" but "getting developers" by giving them what they want.