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EDIT Seen the backlash I’m getting with the comment, would like to clarify that what sparked it was this sentence: > "No nation has a monopoly on virtue – som

EDIT Seen the backlash I’m getting with the comment, would like to clarify that what sparked it was this sentence: > "No nation has a monopoly on virtue – something that many people, including many of my fellow Israeli citizens, still struggle to understand." Where the author seems to hint to consider all that follows himself. TIDE Very powerful message. I would really want to know what Aronson thinks about the situation in Israel with the Palestinians. Of course not to compare the fate of the Jewish people during the savage years of the Holocaust with this of the Palestinians. But Israel seems to have forgotten the humanity of the Palestinians, striping them from their human rights, or passing laws that could affect the rights of Israeli minorities [0]. Obviously condemning the actions of terrorists, atrocities committed against the people of Israel by Palestinians, and that deserving it’s own discussion, just pointing out that because the number of dead Palestinian people is relevant enough and the author who fought for and lives in Israel, was speaking of when countries do dehumanize people and was hoping that in this case there would be voices in Israel that could disagree with the current situation. [0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nat...

Udik 8y ago
Useless, you'll only get downvotes. Very easy to warn others about the perils of de-humanizing a minority, but when you start questioning the mainstream narrative- even if it's a perfect example of the issue- you won't find anybody willing to listen.
vxNsr 8y ago
I'm gonna give the answer you don't wanna hear, and that is incredibly unpopular on HN and really any left of center arena. Israel has not forgotten the humanity of the palestinians(1). It has not striped them of their human rights(2) and it has not passed laws that "could affect minorities."(3) (1) Israel takes great care to protect all human life in any conflict and tries especially hard not remove the dignity of or prejudge people who are bent on murdering its people. When rockets are being launched from hospitals and "army" headquarters are in the backrooms of pre-nurseries innocent civilians and children will be caught in the crossfire, whether it's mortar misfires or drone counter attacks. Anyone asking about the imbalance in death counts is really just a dog whistle for "why don't more jews die". When you have an entire city refusing to give up the names of the people responsible for the stabbing and cold blooded murder of a 1 year baby in it's crib (along with the rest of the family) or the kidnapping and murder of 3 teenagers, it may appear like the Israelis don't care about those whose house they are turning upside down but in reality they could just raze the city in a matter of minutes like Assad does in Syria, or SA reacts in Yemen. the fact is that Israel does its utmost to avoid loss of life while being stabbed from behind by Hamas and being led-on by the PLO who do not want peace and are doing everything to destabilize the region at every turn. (2) The laws here are not so clear cut, but at the very least Israel is not responsible to give people living in what is essentially another country free access to its own services, if that means 3 hour long lines because a visa process has been proven ineffective at preventing terrorist attacks then so be it. I'm not really sure if you have anything specific in mind here but until you can show how Israel is stripping people of human rights I don't know what else I can say. (3) This law is no different from many laws that exist across the European and Asian continents. If you would like to argue that all those laws are racist, I wouldn't agree with you, but by singling out Israel for special scrutiny and failing to mention them on a discussion that in fact is about the rise of racism in European countries, you do appear to be guilty of at least some anti-semitic sentiment. I'm not arguing that Israel is faultless but the way you've tried to frame the argument appears at least ignorant or else decidedly malicious.
- Udik 8y ago
  > (1) Israel takes great care to protect all human life in any conflict For example by having snipers shooting unarmed protesters, women, children, journalists. Sometimes they kill them, but preferably they hit them in the thighs: many of the injured will lose a leg or be in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives. > "why don't more jews die". Yes, how many innocent Palestinian lives is an Israeli life worth, exactly? > Israel is not responsible to give people living in what is essentially another country free access to its own services You're lying. Queues are to move between one city and the other inside the West Bank. Israel has cut the Palestinian territory into little controllable pieces, building a wall inside that territory and around their illegal settlements. Finally, while the Palestinian minority is essentially just tolerated in Israel, what makes Israel an apartheid state is their treatment of both populations outside its borders: citizens if they are Jews, people without any right if they are Palestinians. Your house or your entire village might be razed to the ground, fanatic settlers can fence off your land or take your home, or build entire roads or cities where you're not allowed to enter. And if you protest, it's the military court for you- while Jews are subject to a normal tribunal.
  - edanm 8y ago
    I disagree with most of your post, which I don't think accurately portrays the behavior of Israel. I mean, Israel does a lot of bad things, as do many countries, but it is by no means the standard. And a lot of times, things are reported inaccurately, by e.g. talking about unarmed civilians being shot, when it later turns out that most of the people shot were in fact armed (or among armed protesters). > Finally, while the Palestinian minority is essentially just tolerated in Israel, what makes Israel an apartheid state is their treatment of both populations outside its borders: citizens if they are Jews, people without any right if they are Palestinians I mean, this is literally what every country does though - US citizens have rights in the US, and everyone else doesn't. English citizens have rights in England, and everyone else doesn't. (And to prevent other people being pedantic - of course other people do have rights and I'm not being literal, but Palestinians also have rights in Israel, so you're not being literal here either). If your concern is with Israel singling out Jews as the only ones that are automatically citizens of Israel, that's a valid concern, but it does not make Israel an apartheid state, any more than if England decided that anyone who can prove that in the last 5 generations had English ancestors, was automatically an English citizen. And I'd argue that it's a completely valid and moral thing to do to create a state that automatically makes all Jews citizens - considering the reasoning for the existence of such a state in the first place. Hell, I'd rather live in a world in which the fact that I am Jewish doesn't mean that I have to protect myself from other people - I'd rather an ethnicity-blind world. But unfortunately, I don't live in that world, so I think it's very valid for me to want to be part of a country in which I will not be discriminated against.
edanm 8y ago
No offense intended (really!), but you're talking about a very complicated situation, which it appears that you don't really understand fully. > But Israel seems to have forgotten the humanity of the Palestinians, striping them from their human rights, or passing laws that could affect the rights of Israeli minorities [0]. The situation of the Palestinians is terrible, IMO. But there is simply no simple solution that anyone has for how to solve it. Sure, some Israelis are terrible people, and are racist, etc, as are many Americans, Europeans, etc. But as a whole, the reason the Palestinian situation continues is partly because no one really has a good answer to how to solve it! It's probably also partly because Israel has more power right now, and the feeling is that the longer the situation continues, the better for Israel, so why not let it drag out? But if there were a decent solution, many people in Israel would push very hard to implement it. The truth is, most Israelis just don't know what to do anymore (and solutions have been tried before, negotiations have happened). And btw, the new law that you talk about isn't really going to affect Palestinians so much as minority citizens of Israel (and it probably won't actually affect them either, it's more a symbolic thing I think). > just pointing out that because the number of dead Palestinian people is relevant enough and the author who fought for and lives in Israel, was speaking of when countries do dehumanize people and was hoping that in this case there would be voices in Israel that could disagree with the current situation. If you think there aren't voices in Israel who disagree with the current situation, you're very wrong. Unfortunately, as I said, many people have "given up", or at least have no idea what to do anymore.
- botverse 8y ago
  No offence taken. > But there is simply no simple solution that anyone has for how to solve it. I think the problem can be less complicated if there is a sincere open conversation around it. Let's put some context. In 1948 lots of people were dispossessed of their land and properties, this is still a very controversial thing that is very difficult to talk about. Just go to Jaffa in Israel and ask any Israeli person living in an Arab looking house how their family got to own it and you will realise how of a taboo subject this is. Of course there is no reparations or right of return in the pipeline of the talks. So the first step to solve a problem is realising of it's existence. Instead, Israel seems to continue putting pressure onto the Palestinians with the appropriation of more land and the creation of more settlements [0]. [0] - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45276555 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45276555

Udik 8y ago

Useless, you'll only get downvotes. Very easy to warn others about the perils of de-humanizing a minority, but when you start questioning the mainstream narrative- even if it's a perfect example of the issue- you won't find anybody willing to listen.

vxNsr 8y ago

I'm gonna give the answer you don't wanna hear, and that is incredibly unpopular on HN and really any left of center arena. Israel has not forgotten the humanity of the palestinians(1). It has not striped them of their human rights(2) and it has not passed laws that "could affect minorities."(3) (1) Israel takes great care to protect all human life in any conflict and tries especially hard not remove the dignity of or prejudge people who are bent on murdering its people. When rockets are being launched from hospitals and "army" headquarters are in the backrooms of pre-nurseries innocent civilians and children will be caught in the crossfire, whether it's mortar misfires or drone counter attacks. Anyone asking about the imbalance in death counts is really just a dog whistle for "why don't more jews die". When you have an entire city refusing to give up the names of the people responsible for the stabbing and cold blooded murder of a 1 year baby in it's crib (along with the rest of the family) or the kidnapping and murder of 3 teenagers, it may appear like the Israelis don't care about those whose house they are turning upside down but in reality they could just raze the city in a matter of minutes like Assad does in Syria, or SA reacts in Yemen. the fact is that Israel does its utmost to avoid loss of life while being stabbed from behind by Hamas and being led-on by the PLO who do not want peace and are doing everything to destabilize the region at every turn. (2) The laws here are not so clear cut, but at the very least Israel is not responsible to give people living in what is essentially another country free access to its own services, if that means 3 hour long lines because a visa process has been proven ineffective at preventing terrorist attacks then so be it. I'm not really sure if you have anything specific in mind here but until you can show how Israel is stripping people of human rights I don't know what else I can say. (3) This law is no different from many laws that exist across the European and Asian continents. If you would like to argue that all those laws are racist, I wouldn't agree with you, but by singling out Israel for special scrutiny and failing to mention them on a discussion that in fact is about the rise of racism in European countries, you do appear to be guilty of at least some anti-semitic sentiment. I'm not arguing that Israel is faultless but the way you've tried to frame the argument appears at least ignorant or else decidedly malicious.

Udik 8y ago
> (1) Israel takes great care to protect all human life in any conflict For example by having snipers shooting unarmed protesters, women, children, journalists. Sometimes they kill them, but preferably they hit them in the thighs: many of the injured will lose a leg or be in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives. > "why don't more jews die". Yes, how many innocent Palestinian lives is an Israeli life worth, exactly? > Israel is not responsible to give people living in what is essentially another country free access to its own services You're lying. Queues are to move between one city and the other inside the West Bank. Israel has cut the Palestinian territory into little controllable pieces, building a wall inside that territory and around their illegal settlements. Finally, while the Palestinian minority is essentially just tolerated in Israel, what makes Israel an apartheid state is their treatment of both populations outside its borders: citizens if they are Jews, people without any right if they are Palestinians. Your house or your entire village might be razed to the ground, fanatic settlers can fence off your land or take your home, or build entire roads or cities where you're not allowed to enter. And if you protest, it's the military court for you- while Jews are subject to a normal tribunal.
- edanm 8y ago
  I disagree with most of your post, which I don't think accurately portrays the behavior of Israel. I mean, Israel does a lot of bad things, as do many countries, but it is by no means the standard. And a lot of times, things are reported inaccurately, by e.g. talking about unarmed civilians being shot, when it later turns out that most of the people shot were in fact armed (or among armed protesters). > Finally, while the Palestinian minority is essentially just tolerated in Israel, what makes Israel an apartheid state is their treatment of both populations outside its borders: citizens if they are Jews, people without any right if they are Palestinians I mean, this is literally what every country does though - US citizens have rights in the US, and everyone else doesn't. English citizens have rights in England, and everyone else doesn't. (And to prevent other people being pedantic - of course other people do have rights and I'm not being literal, but Palestinians also have rights in Israel, so you're not being literal here either). If your concern is with Israel singling out Jews as the only ones that are automatically citizens of Israel, that's a valid concern, but it does not make Israel an apartheid state, any more than if England decided that anyone who can prove that in the last 5 generations had English ancestors, was automatically an English citizen. And I'd argue that it's a completely valid and moral thing to do to create a state that automatically makes all Jews citizens - considering the reasoning for the existence of such a state in the first place. Hell, I'd rather live in a world in which the fact that I am Jewish doesn't mean that I have to protect myself from other people - I'd rather an ethnicity-blind world. But unfortunately, I don't live in that world, so I think it's very valid for me to want to be part of a country in which I will not be discriminated against.

edanm 8y ago

No offense intended (really!), but you're talking about a very complicated situation, which it appears that you don't really understand fully. > But Israel seems to have forgotten the humanity of the Palestinians, striping them from their human rights, or passing laws that could affect the rights of Israeli minorities [0]. The situation of the Palestinians is terrible, IMO. But there is simply no simple solution that anyone has for how to solve it. Sure, some Israelis are terrible people, and are racist, etc, as are many Americans, Europeans, etc. But as a whole, the reason the Palestinian situation continues is partly because no one really has a good answer to how to solve it! It's probably also partly because Israel has more power right now, and the feeling is that the longer the situation continues, the better for Israel, so why not let it drag out? But if there were a decent solution, many people in Israel would push very hard to implement it. The truth is, most Israelis just don't know what to do anymore (and solutions have been tried before, negotiations have happened). And btw, the new law that you talk about isn't really going to affect Palestinians so much as minority citizens of Israel (and it probably won't actually affect them either, it's more a symbolic thing I think). > just pointing out that because the number of dead Palestinian people is relevant enough and the author who fought for and lives in Israel, was speaking of when countries do dehumanize people and was hoping that in this case there would be voices in Israel that could disagree with the current situation. If you think there aren't voices in Israel who disagree with the current situation, you're very wrong. Unfortunately, as I said, many people have "given up", or at least have no idea what to do anymore.

botverse 8y ago
No offence taken. > But there is simply no simple solution that anyone has for how to solve it. I think the problem can be less complicated if there is a sincere open conversation around it. Let's put some context. In 1948 lots of people were dispossessed of their land and properties, this is still a very controversial thing that is very difficult to talk about. Just go to Jaffa in Israel and ask any Israeli person living in an Arab looking house how their family got to own it and you will realise how of a taboo subject this is. Of course there is no reparations or right of return in the pipeline of the talks. So the first step to solve a problem is realising of it's existence. Instead, Israel seems to continue putting pressure onto the Palestinians with the appropriation of more land and the creation of more settlements [0]. [0] - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45276555 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45276555