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> Do they not know? Do they think we're lying? Or would they just rather complain than actually solve the problem? Companies typically complain about "lack of

> Do they not know? Do they think we're lying? Or would they just rather complain than actually solve the problem? Companies typically complain about "lack of talent" so the government will let them import more low-paid developers from abroad. There is ample proof that the tech industry fails to tap into many existing talent pools. For example, SV couldn't afford to be openly ageist if talent shortage was really its top concern. You are right that if companies were really so desperate for talent, you'd see a lot more willingness to compensate developers in various ways.

TomMckenny 8y ago
And software isn't the first industry, this same process happened to biotech "successfully" driving down wages to an absurd degree. Much of agism is actuulay moeny related too. While allot comes from the belief that "young people are just smarter" (as opposed to whites or men as was the "common sense" in the past). Much of the discrimination is because it is assumed that after a few years, technologists actually know how much they're worth while the fresh college graduate etc is awestruck by a wage that is barely over bay-area poverty line: There's an assumption you can't get a bargain hiring the over 35 set.
- esoterica 8y ago
  It's not ageism to hire someone asking for less money over someone asking for more money. > technologists actually know how much they're worth If they can't find a job because they want more money than the market is willing to give them then they clearly don't know how much they're worth.
  - TomMckenny 8y ago
    >If they can't find a job because they want more money than the market is willing to give them then they clearly don't know how much they're worth. I do not claim they ask for more, I claim they are perceived as being savvy: They are perceived as costing too much whatever the price. But either way, if there's a shortage of technologists it's because the market isn't paying enough not that the candidate is asking to much.
    - galaxyLogic 8y ago
      > I claim they are perceived as being savvy That would be my assumption as well. Young kids are willing to work hard and smart while all the credits from their work go to whoever hired them. They still believe that just by being (technically) good they can thrive and become successful. Whereas their opponents, not other developers but mid-level management are not trying to be "good" they are trying to profit from others' work. An older more experienced person realizes that much of the value of the software is because of what they put into it. They can also easily explain why that is to the senior management and therefore they are a threat to the mid-level management who are getting older themselves and don't want to fall off the shelf. It's a game, people hiring developers are not looking for smart developers, they are looking for developers they can profit from and who they don't perceive as a threat to themselves.
  - ubernostrum 8y ago
    A good analogy here is the "pilot shortage" US airlines have been complaining about for the past few years. The truth is that there's no shortage of competent people who'd like to be airline pilots. There's arguably not even a shortage of competent people who already possess the training and credentials. There is a shortage of people who are willing to put their expensive training to use at the near-starvation wages offered for entry-level positions with US airlines. So people either don't bother learning to fly, or if they do, they go sign with Asian or middle-eastern airlines, which have been expanding and are willing to pay good salaries for US-trained pilots. Would you argue that pilots who demand more money than a US airline is willing to pay "don't understand how much they're worth"?
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    Ageism in tech is just ageism. It's not (fundamentally) about money and not (fundamentally) about skillset. It's about tossing out any resume of a 40+ year old because tech is "a young man's game". Why is it "a young man's game"? Because that's the current perception and that's it.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Ageism is exaggerated outside of the startup SV culture. I’m in my mid 40s and have never had a problem finding a job. My former manager is 60 and he self demoted to being a developer after putting his kids through college. Every developer I know over 40 is able to get a job if they kept thier skills current.
      - dunpeal 8y ago
        I would not want to be over 40 and interviewing for a almost any startup, anywhere in the US. More broadly, I would not want to be the over-40 guy trying to interview for any team where hardly anyone is even close to 30. Such teams are quite common, especially in startups everywhere, and not just in SV, unfortunately. I'm not affected by ageism myself (yet), but even if it was only in SV, which is the biggest tech hub in the US, then it would be a huge problem. But ageism is rampant outside of SV as well.
        sumek83 8y ago
        Now that I'm out of my 20s I wouldn't want to be interviewing at almost any startup, anywhere in the world. I'm now wiser. Startup culture is toxic and I prefer to stay away ...
        scarface74 8y ago
        There was an article recently on HN that the average age of an entrepreneur is somewhere in thier 40s. But, I’ve worked at startups since I was 35+. Many startup jobs outside of SV are just like any other corporate environment. It’s just the HN/SV bubble that makes people think that all developers are under 30.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  > technologists actually know how much they're worth while the fresh college graduate etc is awestruck by a wage that is barely over bay-area poverty line I think this was a key part of the racket: Faced with the need for engineers, employers offered very high entry-level wages for engineering positions. For most of the past 20 years, entry-level SWE pay was among the best you could hope for as a fresh graduate. However, once an engineer got into "the system", they became "captive audience", so wages could be frozen. Imagine a typical 35 year old engineer with 13 years of full-time programming experience. What's he going to do about his frozen wage? Go to medical school and become a physician instead? So engineers started at or close to $100k, but then got stuck in the narrow $100-150k band for the rest of their career. Like most unfair practices, this one worked... for a short time. Longer term, it was destructive and self-defeating: the smartest, most far-thinking college students did their research, saw that the entry level wages were appealing, but then they become stagnant. It's a bait-and-switch. Looks good from the outside, but after a few years, you start lagging far behind your peers who went to finance, medicine, business, etc. So they went into those fields instead. These are exactly the type of smart, capable, senior software engineer that all these clever employers wish they had right now. Congrats, you played yourselves.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Not every company needs smart capable senior engineers. If you are just doing yet another SAAS CRUD app, you may not need anymore than an architect and some mid level developers. Full stack developers are becoming a commodity. Most of the world’s developers aren’t doing anything that complicated. Yes I am a developer, and I command a slight market premium because of my architecture experience, but I am not the force multiplier that I was as a dev lead previously. I self demoted for a lot of reasons (for the same pay) but I know that my work isn’t as impactful.
    - dunpeal 8y ago
      > Not every company needs smart capable senior engineers. If you are just doing yet another SAAS CRUD app, you may not need anymore than an architect and some mid level developers. Full stack developers are becoming a commodity. So you recognize even a single simple project like a single SAAS CRUD app requires at least one smart, capable, senior engineer (your architect). Also, I'd say you're overestimating my definition of "senior engineers". A senior engineer is someone who actually completed a project or two. Someone you can entrust with big chunks of development work and be reasonably sure they won't mess it up. Your "mid level developers" are likely senior by this standard, especially since the alternative, "a junior", typically means someone fresh out of college (or boot camp) with about 0 real world experience.
swerveonem 8y ago
Often the best batches of resumes come from international staffing companies, they are often faster and more efficient at putting butts in seats than the smaller staffing companies that focus on local talent s.

TomMckenny 8y ago

And software isn't the first industry, this same process happened to biotech "successfully" driving down wages to an absurd degree. Much of agism is actuulay moeny related too. While allot comes from the belief that "young people are just smarter" (as opposed to whites or men as was the "common sense" in the past). Much of the discrimination is because it is assumed that after a few years, technologists actually know how much they're worth while the fresh college graduate etc is awestruck by a wage that is barely over bay-area poverty line: There's an assumption you can't get a bargain hiring the over 35 set.

esoterica 8y ago
It's not ageism to hire someone asking for less money over someone asking for more money. > technologists actually know how much they're worth If they can't find a job because they want more money than the market is willing to give them then they clearly don't know how much they're worth.
- TomMckenny 8y ago
  >If they can't find a job because they want more money than the market is willing to give them then they clearly don't know how much they're worth. I do not claim they ask for more, I claim they are perceived as being savvy: They are perceived as costing too much whatever the price. But either way, if there's a shortage of technologists it's because the market isn't paying enough not that the candidate is asking to much.
  - galaxyLogic 8y ago
    > I claim they are perceived as being savvy That would be my assumption as well. Young kids are willing to work hard and smart while all the credits from their work go to whoever hired them. They still believe that just by being (technically) good they can thrive and become successful. Whereas their opponents, not other developers but mid-level management are not trying to be "good" they are trying to profit from others' work. An older more experienced person realizes that much of the value of the software is because of what they put into it. They can also easily explain why that is to the senior management and therefore they are a threat to the mid-level management who are getting older themselves and don't want to fall off the shelf. It's a game, people hiring developers are not looking for smart developers, they are looking for developers they can profit from and who they don't perceive as a threat to themselves.
- ubernostrum 8y ago
  A good analogy here is the "pilot shortage" US airlines have been complaining about for the past few years. The truth is that there's no shortage of competent people who'd like to be airline pilots. There's arguably not even a shortage of competent people who already possess the training and credentials. There is a shortage of people who are willing to put their expensive training to use at the near-starvation wages offered for entry-level positions with US airlines. So people either don't bother learning to fly, or if they do, they go sign with Asian or middle-eastern airlines, which have been expanding and are willing to pay good salaries for US-trained pilots. Would you argue that pilots who demand more money than a US airline is willing to pay "don't understand how much they're worth"?
- dunpeal 8y ago
  Ageism in tech is just ageism. It's not (fundamentally) about money and not (fundamentally) about skillset. It's about tossing out any resume of a 40+ year old because tech is "a young man's game". Why is it "a young man's game"? Because that's the current perception and that's it.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Ageism is exaggerated outside of the startup SV culture. I’m in my mid 40s and have never had a problem finding a job. My former manager is 60 and he self demoted to being a developer after putting his kids through college. Every developer I know over 40 is able to get a job if they kept thier skills current.
    - dunpeal 8y ago
      I would not want to be over 40 and interviewing for a almost any startup, anywhere in the US. More broadly, I would not want to be the over-40 guy trying to interview for any team where hardly anyone is even close to 30. Such teams are quite common, especially in startups everywhere, and not just in SV, unfortunately. I'm not affected by ageism myself (yet), but even if it was only in SV, which is the biggest tech hub in the US, then it would be a huge problem. But ageism is rampant outside of SV as well.
      - sumek83 8y ago
        Now that I'm out of my 20s I wouldn't want to be interviewing at almost any startup, anywhere in the world. I'm now wiser. Startup culture is toxic and I prefer to stay away ...
        scarface74 8y ago
        There was an article recently on HN that the average age of an entrepreneur is somewhere in thier 40s. But, I’ve worked at startups since I was 35+. Many startup jobs outside of SV are just like any other corporate environment. It’s just the HN/SV bubble that makes people think that all developers are under 30.
dunpeal 8y ago
> technologists actually know how much they're worth while the fresh college graduate etc is awestruck by a wage that is barely over bay-area poverty line I think this was a key part of the racket: Faced with the need for engineers, employers offered very high entry-level wages for engineering positions. For most of the past 20 years, entry-level SWE pay was among the best you could hope for as a fresh graduate. However, once an engineer got into "the system", they became "captive audience", so wages could be frozen. Imagine a typical 35 year old engineer with 13 years of full-time programming experience. What's he going to do about his frozen wage? Go to medical school and become a physician instead? So engineers started at or close to $100k, but then got stuck in the narrow $100-150k band for the rest of their career. Like most unfair practices, this one worked... for a short time. Longer term, it was destructive and self-defeating: the smartest, most far-thinking college students did their research, saw that the entry level wages were appealing, but then they become stagnant. It's a bait-and-switch. Looks good from the outside, but after a few years, you start lagging far behind your peers who went to finance, medicine, business, etc. So they went into those fields instead. These are exactly the type of smart, capable, senior software engineer that all these clever employers wish they had right now. Congrats, you played yourselves.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Not every company needs smart capable senior engineers. If you are just doing yet another SAAS CRUD app, you may not need anymore than an architect and some mid level developers. Full stack developers are becoming a commodity. Most of the world’s developers aren’t doing anything that complicated. Yes I am a developer, and I command a slight market premium because of my architecture experience, but I am not the force multiplier that I was as a dev lead previously. I self demoted for a lot of reasons (for the same pay) but I know that my work isn’t as impactful.
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    > Not every company needs smart capable senior engineers. If you are just doing yet another SAAS CRUD app, you may not need anymore than an architect and some mid level developers. Full stack developers are becoming a commodity. So you recognize even a single simple project like a single SAAS CRUD app requires at least one smart, capable, senior engineer (your architect). Also, I'd say you're overestimating my definition of "senior engineers". A senior engineer is someone who actually completed a project or two. Someone you can entrust with big chunks of development work and be reasonably sure they won't mess it up. Your "mid level developers" are likely senior by this standard, especially since the alternative, "a junior", typically means someone fresh out of college (or boot camp) with about 0 real world experience.

swerveonem 8y ago

Often the best batches of resumes come from international staffing companies, they are often faster and more efficient at putting butts in seats than the smaller staffing companies that focus on local talent s.