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Referencing modern Poland is uncalled for. At this moment this voice is becoming just another one in a dirty political quarrel. History is still being studied i

Referencing modern Poland is uncalled for. At this moment this voice is becoming just another one in a dirty political quarrel. History is still being studied in Poland, no worries Mr. Aronson and Guardian.

ajuc 8y ago
Modern Poland is going the nationalist populism way. The article is very much called for, and it is needed. We have a government that builds its ideology on the notion that Poland was always innocent and heroic, Poles were always the victims, we should be proud of our country, anybody who says otherwise is a traitor, leftist, marxist, or other kind of undesirable. They build their support on historic resentment towards Germans (because WW2 but also because now they are leftists and want to put terrorists in our country), EU in general (because they are leftist and lie to us, they only give us money to abuse us, we would be better off outside), Jews (because they are lying that Poles were killing them and helping Germans in WW2, because they want our money from reperations, because they are behind every leftist conspiracy ever). Among the enemies of the people are also private media, NGOs, ecologists, liberal and socialist governments anywhere, liberal media. Whoever criticizes any particular thing government did becomes a part of conspiracy, and then it suffices to show that this guy is in any way connected to any previously ostracized group - and you can safely ignore whatever (s)he says. There's this paranoia that people abroad say "polish death camps" and think that death camps were created by Poles. So they post every single mention in foreign media of the term, and there's public outrage. There was a stupid law recently introduced that was punishing "blaming Polish nation or state for Holocaust or other crimes against humanity". It was unconstutitional obviously, but constutitional tribunal isn't working anymore. It was also stupid, because there were crimes against humanity done by Poles (although on small scale). It was introduced, predictably Israel, USA, and others protested - government used it as a way to portrait everybody opposing this law as a traitor paid by Jews. That was the rhethoric. And USA obviously is only protesting because Israel forces them to (because government at once tries to show USA as an alternative to EU which is the big devil according to them, and to show that USA when it criticizes Poland is the enemy too). It's funny how they contradict themselves sometimes. For like half a year the law was suspended, and government blamed everything evil on Jews for opposing it. There was a huge antisemitic campaign in the media, both traditional (public TV, radio, etc), and social media. People were posting every single story from WW2 where a Jew did something bad (because that makes Poles collaborating with Germans ok somehow :) ). There was a 50 anniversary of 1968 expulsion of Jews from Poland by communist regime. Somehow, despite current government dislike of communists - they managed to make it look like 1968 was bad, but Jews had it coming. USA blocked all high-level meetings between our governments, and that was the end of that. Government backpedaled, law was canceled. But the propaganda remains. It sometimes feels like I'm in 1930s. Have you ever listened to Michałkiewicz or Grzegorz Braun? People like that always were there, but they were marginalized. Nowaydays their rethoric is repeated by prime minister and public TV. It's terrifying to see my own parents buying into this crap. People who were always teaching me to be tolerant, not to believe government when it shows "these people are your enemy". Now they are repeating the same shit that is in TVP. Every few months there's new public enemy - from ecologists, through "homolobby", european courts, NGOs, private media, Jews, France, Israel, USA, Germany, Ireland. Everybody out there is just waiting to destroy our pure, innocent Poland. That is bullshit, and the fact that people are buying into this is scary as hell. I will manage, I'm working in IT. I can go abroad and live well. But I'm also a patriot, and I don't want to move. And I'm very pessimistic about the general direction Poland took recently. It ends with isolated, marginalized Poland outside of EU. And that in turn ends with Poland going the Belarus way - as a "proudly independent" vassal state of Russia. I would very much want to be mistaken, but we're so far hitting every point on the checklist.
- expertentipp 8y ago
  You cannot be for real.
  - dang 8y ago
    If you don't want to be banned on HN, please stop posting uncivil and unsubstantive comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dexen 8y ago
  I've read your post twice, just to be sure I didn't overlook an "/s" marker, a wink emoji or something. It strikes me as a narrow view taken to extreme - entire vision of our country built up from referencing criticisms and verbal sparring. Political horse-trading, and back-and-forth doesn't a nation-state make. That is neither substantive matter, nor the actual state of the country. Please, have a look around with me; consider multiple factors: The economy's doing well, the country is not pushing towards Russia - neither economically nor geopolitically; instead we've diversified trade and geopolitics; see the recent adventures with China. The political process is chugging along as it ought to, there's plurality of voices in the media and it seems to be growing. The political and economic protests & demonstrations are well attended and mostly well behaved. We've even managed to hold our own against EU's meddling in our internal politics, during recent changes to the judiciary. Oh, and we're one of the very few states in Europe that managed to weather the migrant crisis. Meanwhile we host - no, scratch that, we gainfully employ and well integrate with - a vibrant community of war refugees from our neighbor, the Ukraine. If there's one thing I still seriously worry about, it's the retirement pension system. Frankly, I plan on avoiding relying on that. Hey, we've on a better trajectory than our western neighbors, and we've made a few friends along the way. Cheers!
  - ajuc 8y ago
    Economy has nothing to do with national propaganda spreading xenophobia and calling all opposition - traitors. 3rd Reich had much better economy than Weimar Republic (if not very sustainable). Besides - Poland is one of the few countries in EU that haven't had budget surplus in last few years despite the economic boom in EU. > the country is not pushing towards Russia Look at any independent rating regarding media freedom, rule of law, tolerance. We are changing towards Russia. > we've diversified trade and geopolitics yeah, from being "friends" with EU and USA we changed to what exactly? China isn't our ally, we're doing business, like we did before. Meanwhile we're completely marginalized in EU, and have no bargaining power in relations with USA (which was pretty well showcased during that crisis with stupid Holocaust law). Even if PIS doesn't want us to exit EU - it constantly portraits EU as the worst threat to Poland. Such propaganda may easily end with Poland leaving EU - see Cameron debacle. PIS is feeding extreme right to marginalize liberal opposition, same as Fides did in Hungary with Jobbik. Then PIS remains the "lesser evil". This is a very risky strategy, and is already hurting Poland. > there's plurality of voices in the media and it seems to be growing https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2017/poland https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2017/poland > Poland’s status declined from Free to Partly Free due to government intolerance toward independent or critical reporting, excessive political interference in the affairs of public media, and restrictions on speech regarding Polish history and identity, which have collectively contributed to increased self-censorship and polarization. Government openly talks about nationalization of foreign owned media. That's the plurality you speak of? > We've even managed to hold our own against EU's meddling in our internal politics, during recent changes to the judiciary Or, if you aren't brainwashed - we managed to destroy independent judiciary and still remain in EU (for now). Great job. > Oh, and we're one of the very few states in Europe that managed to weather the migrant crisis The rest of the European countries seem to exist as well. Maybe try to travel more :) > war refugees from our neighbor, the Ukraine These are war refuges like the +- 2 000 000 of Poles in UK, Ireland, Germany are war refuges. So - not at all. They are economic migrants, and benefit Poland much more than we benefit them. Still a good thing, but changes nothing.

ajuc 8y ago

Modern Poland is going the nationalist populism way. The article is very much called for, and it is needed. We have a government that builds its ideology on the notion that Poland was always innocent and heroic, Poles were always the victims, we should be proud of our country, anybody who says otherwise is a traitor, leftist, marxist, or other kind of undesirable. They build their support on historic resentment towards Germans (because WW2 but also because now they are leftists and want to put terrorists in our country), EU in general (because they are leftist and lie to us, they only give us money to abuse us, we would be better off outside), Jews (because they are lying that Poles were killing them and helping Germans in WW2, because they want our money from reperations, because they are behind every leftist conspiracy ever). Among the enemies of the people are also private media, NGOs, ecologists, liberal and socialist governments anywhere, liberal media. Whoever criticizes any particular thing government did becomes a part of conspiracy, and then it suffices to show that this guy is in any way connected to any previously ostracized group - and you can safely ignore whatever (s)he says. There's this paranoia that people abroad say "polish death camps" and think that death camps were created by Poles. So they post every single mention in foreign media of the term, and there's public outrage. There was a stupid law recently introduced that was punishing "blaming Polish nation or state for Holocaust or other crimes against humanity". It was unconstutitional obviously, but constutitional tribunal isn't working anymore. It was also stupid, because there were crimes against humanity done by Poles (although on small scale). It was introduced, predictably Israel, USA, and others protested - government used it as a way to portrait everybody opposing this law as a traitor paid by Jews. That was the rhethoric. And USA obviously is only protesting because Israel forces them to (because government at once tries to show USA as an alternative to EU which is the big devil according to them, and to show that USA when it criticizes Poland is the enemy too). It's funny how they contradict themselves sometimes. For like half a year the law was suspended, and government blamed everything evil on Jews for opposing it. There was a huge antisemitic campaign in the media, both traditional (public TV, radio, etc), and social media. People were posting every single story from WW2 where a Jew did something bad (because that makes Poles collaborating with Germans ok somehow :) ). There was a 50 anniversary of 1968 expulsion of Jews from Poland by communist regime. Somehow, despite current government dislike of communists - they managed to make it look like 1968 was bad, but Jews had it coming. USA blocked all high-level meetings between our governments, and that was the end of that. Government backpedaled, law was canceled. But the propaganda remains. It sometimes feels like I'm in 1930s. Have you ever listened to Michałkiewicz or Grzegorz Braun? People like that always were there, but they were marginalized. Nowaydays their rethoric is repeated by prime minister and public TV. It's terrifying to see my own parents buying into this crap. People who were always teaching me to be tolerant, not to believe government when it shows "these people are your enemy". Now they are repeating the same shit that is in TVP. Every few months there's new public enemy - from ecologists, through "homolobby", european courts, NGOs, private media, Jews, France, Israel, USA, Germany, Ireland. Everybody out there is just waiting to destroy our pure, innocent Poland. That is bullshit, and the fact that people are buying into this is scary as hell. I will manage, I'm working in IT. I can go abroad and live well. But I'm also a patriot, and I don't want to move. And I'm very pessimistic about the general direction Poland took recently. It ends with isolated, marginalized Poland outside of EU. And that in turn ends with Poland going the Belarus way - as a "proudly independent" vassal state of Russia. I would very much want to be mistaken, but we're so far hitting every point on the checklist.

expertentipp 8y ago
You cannot be for real.
- dang 8y ago
  If you don't want to be banned on HN, please stop posting uncivil and unsubstantive comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dexen 8y ago
I've read your post twice, just to be sure I didn't overlook an "/s" marker, a wink emoji or something. It strikes me as a narrow view taken to extreme - entire vision of our country built up from referencing criticisms and verbal sparring. Political horse-trading, and back-and-forth doesn't a nation-state make. That is neither substantive matter, nor the actual state of the country. Please, have a look around with me; consider multiple factors: The economy's doing well, the country is not pushing towards Russia - neither economically nor geopolitically; instead we've diversified trade and geopolitics; see the recent adventures with China. The political process is chugging along as it ought to, there's plurality of voices in the media and it seems to be growing. The political and economic protests & demonstrations are well attended and mostly well behaved. We've even managed to hold our own against EU's meddling in our internal politics, during recent changes to the judiciary. Oh, and we're one of the very few states in Europe that managed to weather the migrant crisis. Meanwhile we host - no, scratch that, we gainfully employ and well integrate with - a vibrant community of war refugees from our neighbor, the Ukraine. If there's one thing I still seriously worry about, it's the retirement pension system. Frankly, I plan on avoiding relying on that. Hey, we've on a better trajectory than our western neighbors, and we've made a few friends along the way. Cheers!
- ajuc 8y ago
  Economy has nothing to do with national propaganda spreading xenophobia and calling all opposition - traitors. 3rd Reich had much better economy than Weimar Republic (if not very sustainable). Besides - Poland is one of the few countries in EU that haven't had budget surplus in last few years despite the economic boom in EU. > the country is not pushing towards Russia Look at any independent rating regarding media freedom, rule of law, tolerance. We are changing towards Russia. > we've diversified trade and geopolitics yeah, from being "friends" with EU and USA we changed to what exactly? China isn't our ally, we're doing business, like we did before. Meanwhile we're completely marginalized in EU, and have no bargaining power in relations with USA (which was pretty well showcased during that crisis with stupid Holocaust law). Even if PIS doesn't want us to exit EU - it constantly portraits EU as the worst threat to Poland. Such propaganda may easily end with Poland leaving EU - see Cameron debacle. PIS is feeding extreme right to marginalize liberal opposition, same as Fides did in Hungary with Jobbik. Then PIS remains the "lesser evil". This is a very risky strategy, and is already hurting Poland. > there's plurality of voices in the media and it seems to be growing https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2017/poland https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2017/poland > Poland’s status declined from Free to Partly Free due to government intolerance toward independent or critical reporting, excessive political interference in the affairs of public media, and restrictions on speech regarding Polish history and identity, which have collectively contributed to increased self-censorship and polarization. Government openly talks about nationalization of foreign owned media. That's the plurality you speak of? > We've even managed to hold our own against EU's meddling in our internal politics, during recent changes to the judiciary Or, if you aren't brainwashed - we managed to destroy independent judiciary and still remain in EU (for now). Great job. > Oh, and we're one of the very few states in Europe that managed to weather the migrant crisis The rest of the European countries seem to exist as well. Maybe try to travel more :) > war refugees from our neighbor, the Ukraine These are war refuges like the +- 2 000 000 of Poles in UK, Ireland, Germany are war refuges. So - not at all. They are economic migrants, and benefit Poland much more than we benefit them. Still a good thing, but changes nothing.