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> If disaster comes, you will find that all the myths you once cherished are of no use to you. This spring I visited Notre Dame in Paris. I saw four soldiers p

by lixtra 8y ago

> If disaster comes, you will find that all the myths you once cherished are of no use to you. This spring I visited Notre Dame in Paris. I saw four soldiers patroling the street, spread out a few meters apart from each other, one finger close to the triger, barrel pointing to the ground. Reminded me of a patrol in a vietnam movie. A similar scene I saw last year in Italy altough the soldiers were much more relaxed. In Bern, Switzerland the Christmas market was protected by huge concrete blocks wrapped in gift paper. This may be all security theatre. Or the times are really changing. I found "On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century" a good read (the lessons, not the comment). I depends on us simple citizens to carry and defend civilization and avoid disaster.

stevenwoo 8y ago
When the IRA was still conducting bombing attacks in London in the 1990's, there were armed soldiers near every government building and landmark. This doesn't seem materially different from then, just omnipresent due to having to defend against the last successful attacks in Europe. Having bollards or the equivalent just seems like good preventative measures after the last few attacks on pedestrians with vehicles - it would be negligent not to do that.
- dingaling 8y ago
  And conversely in Northern Ireland I haven't seen a soldier on patrol for 20 years. The police are armed here, of course, and Army helicopters still pass overhead on occasion but generally it's an inversion of the days of my youth.
- mistermann 8y ago
  > This doesn't seem materially different from then It may not be materially different for some limited set of attributes, but it may be materially different for other attributes, like "how did this situation come to be?", or "did certain political decisions contribute to this situation?".
Mediterraneo10 8y ago
Back in the 1970s, during the heyday of far-left terrorist groups, it was quite common for foreign tourists to be shocked at soldiers patrolling with guns in Germany or Italy. There may have been a lull in such things in the following decades, but what you saw is not particularly unprecedented historically and I wouldn’t be too concerned.
- zwaps 8y ago
  Soldiers, patrolling with guns, in Germany... Are you sure?
  - mmPzf 8y ago
    To add some context, the German constitution states that the German military may not operate within German borders (with some exceptions, e.g. disaster relief during natural disasters). Seeing armed soldiers would be very out of the ordinary.
    - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
      I do not mean soldiers sensu stricto (German army) but Bundepolizei with heavy weaponry.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    Yes, I am sure inasmuch as I have heard this vividly recalled by relatives who frequently visited Germany in the 1970s. But if my anecdotal account isn’t enough, do a Google search or Google Books search for e.g. "frankfurt airport machine gun" and you will see this made an impression on other foreign visitors to Germany in years and decades past.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - reshie 8y ago
    probably police in tactical gear and AR's.
matthewdgreen 8y ago
> This may be all security theatre. Or the times are really changing. The whole point of terrorism is to convince you that "times are really changing" and that nothing is safe anymore. It only works if you let it. Try not to.
jlg23 8y ago
WRT the difference between soldiers in Paris and Italy: "Finger close to the trigger" usually means a proper drill in trigger discipline - I'd take that anytime over "relaxed" soldiers.
- jacobush 8y ago
  I don't know why, I have never been to Italy neither France, but from the pop culture diet I've been fed, I'd rather be subjected to French soldiers AND police than their Italian counterpart. Commisar Montalbano, I'm sorry.
- baud147258 8y ago
  > "Finger close to the trigger" From all the dozens of soldiers I've seen in France, since I live here, I've rarely seen finger close to the trigger. Even more, for most of the 3-man patrols, only one carried a loaded weapon.
zahrc 8y ago
I was visiting Paris and versaille in summer 2014 and also saw soldiers patroling several places like palace of Versailles, la Fontaine St Michel, Notre dame and probably much more. They were generally very disciplined as they did not allow any Smalltalk. In Germany things have gotten worse over time. Security staff is checking the trains now daily for suspicious behaviour, normally you don't see those guys at all. In Berlin main station you now can occasionally see policemen patroling with a MP5, which was a very very rare find (if it's not a hotspot kind of thing like demonstrations) These are just my personal observations and maybe I have just been ignorant before, but I see things really changing
- briandear 8y ago
  In France, they’ve had those patrols for at least 10 years. They have increased in quantity, but those are nothing new.
  - ardy42 8y ago
    > In France, they’ve had those patrols for at least 10 years. They have increased in quantity, but those are nothing new. Ten years isn't that long of a time. I'd still say they're relatively new.
    - baud147258 8y ago
      I'd say that such military presence dates back at least to the 9/11 attacks, but it has been ramped up a lot since 2015.
andyidsinga 8y ago
that book looks pretty interesting. here are a couple quotes from a review in the washington post[1]. >The author dwells on “the politics of the everyday” to show the small ways people succumb to or fend off the encroachment of tyranny. Much of the initial power granted to nondemocratic leaders is given freely, via “heedless acts of conformity,” long before popular docility is requested or required. Snyder recalls how, when Hitler threatened to invade Austria, regular Austrian citizens looked on, or joined in, as local Nazis detained Austrian Jews or stole their property. “Anticipatory obedience is a political tragedy,” the author writes. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/02/24/20-ways-to-recognize-tyranny-and-fight-it/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/02/24...
hourislate 8y ago
I spent 6 months in Paris when it was being bombed by Algerian Terrorists. All the garbage can lids were welded shut and soldiers patrolled the subways with bomb sniffing dogs. There were a couple bombings while I was there. My intention is not to romanticize it because people died and were hurt but as a young person feeling invincible, man was it exciting living dangerously (well maybe not that dangerous but still).
Mc91 8y ago
> This spring I visited Notre Dame in Paris. I saw four soldiers patroling the street, spread out a few meters apart from each other, one finger close to the triger, barrel pointing to the ground...This may be all security theatre. Or the times are really changing. I don't think times are changing...thirty years ago I crossed the border in north Ireland, which was heavily militarized and patrolled, and drove past police stations there, which were heavily militarized. Then went to Paris and ran across sandbag covered watchpoints around the US embassy, possibly because of the recent CSPPA attacks. Then we went to the FRG a few weeks after Reagan made a Berlin speech (protested by tens of thousands of people in west Berlin), and the US/FRG/NATO presence even in cities like Nuernberg were ever-present, especially amid tensions between the Warsaw Pact and NATO. So no, I don't think times are changing.
- int_19h 8y ago
  Things are changing. They're changing (at least in part) to what you've seen 30 years ago, but that's not a good sign, when you look at what was the norm during those 30 years.
zapita 8y ago
It’s theater. Political terrorism is not the most pressing threat we should worry about as a global society... I doubt it’s even in the top 5.
- koonsolo 8y ago
  Last year in Belgium, soldiers who were patrolling the station were able to "neutralize" a terrorist who was carrying explosives, and therefore were able to prevent another attack in Brussels. If you think it's all theater here in Europe, you have your head stuck up your ass.
etiennemarcel 8y ago
The "opération Sentinelle" (the soldiers patrolling in France) is mostly for the show... It's currently the most expensive military operation run in France, and is one of the main factors in the rise of desertion in the army. The only time these soldiers had to fire was to protect themselves, since they are magnets for wannabe terrorists or crazy people...
- baud147258 8y ago
  > the rise of desertion in the army AFAIK, there's not a lot of actual desertion, it's more that a lot of soldiers who enlisted after the 2015 attacks have not renewed their contract once their first term was finished, since standing for two in front of a Synagogue was not what they had in mind when they enlisted to "protect their country"
  - etiennemarcel 8y ago
    The number is actually pretty high (around 1800 soldiers deserting every year): https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2018/04/17/le-temps-des-deserteurs_5286322_3224.html https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2018/04/17/le-temps-d...

by lixtra 8y ago

stevenwoo 8y ago

When the IRA was still conducting bombing attacks in London in the 1990's, there were armed soldiers near every government building and landmark. This doesn't seem materially different from then, just omnipresent due to having to defend against the last successful attacks in Europe. Having bollards or the equivalent just seems like good preventative measures after the last few attacks on pedestrians with vehicles - it would be negligent not to do that.

dingaling 8y ago
And conversely in Northern Ireland I haven't seen a soldier on patrol for 20 years. The police are armed here, of course, and Army helicopters still pass overhead on occasion but generally it's an inversion of the days of my youth.
mistermann 8y ago
> This doesn't seem materially different from then It may not be materially different for some limited set of attributes, but it may be materially different for other attributes, like "how did this situation come to be?", or "did certain political decisions contribute to this situation?".

Mediterraneo10 8y ago

Back in the 1970s, during the heyday of far-left terrorist groups, it was quite common for foreign tourists to be shocked at soldiers patrolling with guns in Germany or Italy. There may have been a lull in such things in the following decades, but what you saw is not particularly unprecedented historically and I wouldn’t be too concerned.

zwaps 8y ago
Soldiers, patrolling with guns, in Germany... Are you sure?
- mmPzf 8y ago
  To add some context, the German constitution states that the German military may not operate within German borders (with some exceptions, e.g. disaster relief during natural disasters). Seeing armed soldiers would be very out of the ordinary.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    I do not mean soldiers sensu stricto (German army) but Bundepolizei with heavy weaponry.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  Yes, I am sure inasmuch as I have heard this vividly recalled by relatives who frequently visited Germany in the 1970s. But if my anecdotal account isn’t enough, do a Google search or Google Books search for e.g. "frankfurt airport machine gun" and you will see this made an impression on other foreign visitors to Germany in years and decades past.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- reshie 8y ago
  probably police in tactical gear and AR's.

matthewdgreen 8y ago

> This may be all security theatre. Or the times are really changing. The whole point of terrorism is to convince you that "times are really changing" and that nothing is safe anymore. It only works if you let it. Try not to.

jlg23 8y ago

WRT the difference between soldiers in Paris and Italy: "Finger close to the trigger" usually means a proper drill in trigger discipline - I'd take that anytime over "relaxed" soldiers.

jacobush 8y ago
I don't know why, I have never been to Italy neither France, but from the pop culture diet I've been fed, I'd rather be subjected to French soldiers AND police than their Italian counterpart. Commisar Montalbano, I'm sorry.
baud147258 8y ago
> "Finger close to the trigger" From all the dozens of soldiers I've seen in France, since I live here, I've rarely seen finger close to the trigger. Even more, for most of the 3-man patrols, only one carried a loaded weapon.

zahrc 8y ago

I was visiting Paris and versaille in summer 2014 and also saw soldiers patroling several places like palace of Versailles, la Fontaine St Michel, Notre dame and probably much more. They were generally very disciplined as they did not allow any Smalltalk. In Germany things have gotten worse over time. Security staff is checking the trains now daily for suspicious behaviour, normally you don't see those guys at all. In Berlin main station you now can occasionally see policemen patroling with a MP5, which was a very very rare find (if it's not a hotspot kind of thing like demonstrations) These are just my personal observations and maybe I have just been ignorant before, but I see things really changing

briandear 8y ago
In France, they’ve had those patrols for at least 10 years. They have increased in quantity, but those are nothing new.
- ardy42 8y ago
  > In France, they’ve had those patrols for at least 10 years. They have increased in quantity, but those are nothing new. Ten years isn't that long of a time. I'd still say they're relatively new.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    I'd say that such military presence dates back at least to the 9/11 attacks, but it has been ramped up a lot since 2015.

andyidsinga 8y ago

that book looks pretty interesting. here are a couple quotes from a review in the washington post[1]. >The author dwells on “the politics of the everyday” to show the small ways people succumb to or fend off the encroachment of tyranny. Much of the initial power granted to nondemocratic leaders is given freely, via “heedless acts of conformity,” long before popular docility is requested or required. Snyder recalls how, when Hitler threatened to invade Austria, regular Austrian citizens looked on, or joined in, as local Nazis detained Austrian Jews or stole their property. “Anticipatory obedience is a political tragedy,” the author writes. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/02/24/20-ways-to-recognize-tyranny-and-fight-it/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/02/24...

hourislate 8y ago

I spent 6 months in Paris when it was being bombed by Algerian Terrorists. All the garbage can lids were welded shut and soldiers patrolled the subways with bomb sniffing dogs. There were a couple bombings while I was there. My intention is not to romanticize it because people died and were hurt but as a young person feeling invincible, man was it exciting living dangerously (well maybe not that dangerous but still).

Mc91 8y ago

> This spring I visited Notre Dame in Paris. I saw four soldiers patroling the street, spread out a few meters apart from each other, one finger close to the triger, barrel pointing to the ground...This may be all security theatre. Or the times are really changing. I don't think times are changing...thirty years ago I crossed the border in north Ireland, which was heavily militarized and patrolled, and drove past police stations there, which were heavily militarized. Then went to Paris and ran across sandbag covered watchpoints around the US embassy, possibly because of the recent CSPPA attacks. Then we went to the FRG a few weeks after Reagan made a Berlin speech (protested by tens of thousands of people in west Berlin), and the US/FRG/NATO presence even in cities like Nuernberg were ever-present, especially amid tensions between the Warsaw Pact and NATO. So no, I don't think times are changing.

int_19h 8y ago
Things are changing. They're changing (at least in part) to what you've seen 30 years ago, but that's not a good sign, when you look at what was the norm during those 30 years.

zapita 8y ago

It’s theater. Political terrorism is not the most pressing threat we should worry about as a global society... I doubt it’s even in the top 5.

koonsolo 8y ago
Last year in Belgium, soldiers who were patrolling the station were able to "neutralize" a terrorist who was carrying explosives, and therefore were able to prevent another attack in Brussels. If you think it's all theater here in Europe, you have your head stuck up your ass.

etiennemarcel 8y ago

The "opération Sentinelle" (the soldiers patrolling in France) is mostly for the show... It's currently the most expensive military operation run in France, and is one of the main factors in the rise of desertion in the army. The only time these soldiers had to fire was to protect themselves, since they are magnets for wannabe terrorists or crazy people...

baud147258 8y ago
> the rise of desertion in the army AFAIK, there's not a lot of actual desertion, it's more that a lot of soldiers who enlisted after the 2015 attacks have not renewed their contract once their first term was finished, since standing for two in front of a Synagogue was not what they had in mind when they enlisted to "protect their country"
- etiennemarcel 8y ago
  The number is actually pretty high (around 1800 soldiers deserting every year): https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2018/04/17/le-temps-des-deserteurs_5286322_3224.html https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2018/04/17/le-temps-d...