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I survived the Warsaw ghetto. Here are the lessons I’d like to pass on

230 points by TheAlchemist 8y ago

tomohawk 8y ago
> do not underestimate the destructive power of lies When people are unwilling to hold fast to truth, that is when terrible things happen. When someone tells a lie, for example, "the reason you don't have a job and things are bad is because of those Jews". Or, "those Jews are not human - we have to protect ourselves". That is when people who would not normally do bad things do bad things. They can believe they are saving their country from destruction by sub-humans. They can believe that they are in fact performing a heroic action. Some of the labeling heard today seems to be coming close to this, and with terrible consequences. People are losing their jobs, their careers, their ability to express their views, and their ability to practice their religious beliefs - all for the "greater good". Instead of respecting a person's inalienable rights - because they are a human that always deserves this respect - some people are telling themselves that it is OK to disrespect others to achieve some utopian state. This is the biggest lie.
- danharaj 8y ago
  > Some of the labeling heard today What do you have in mind, in particular?
  - happytoexplain 8y ago
    Spreading hatred for groups of people via labels and encouraging their treatment as sub-human is popular rhetoric among nationalist extremists and political conspiracy theorists, but to satisfy the final condition (to be subjected in practice to a significant amount of suppression based on deceitful rhetoric), I think an easy argument could be made to put immigrants in that category, and maybe also homosexuals/trans people. You have to be mindful of that last condition though, since if you dropped it, nearly any group of people, sadly, would qualify as being subjected to such behavior.
    - tajen 8y ago
      That’s all common prejudices you have about right-wing people. But you’re right on one thing: It’s very dangerous. You’re encouraging people to have prejudices to the point of being ok with killing or justifying the killing of white people. Example: White people getting expropriated and killed in South Africa hurts no-one’s feelings, unfortunately. The real question here is not the ethnicities, but sorting lies from truth, moral from amoral. And the killing of people is amoral in ALL cases. Even if the victim is white or male. And that’s what the right-wing have been saying all along, despites layers of lies that are spread over them. It is a real, big big big problem that whites and males are disparaged today to the point of being fired from Google when they protest for illegal mistreatment or put errorneously in prison in UK for reporting on crimes performed by the protected classes, and encouraging the disparaging of people who say just-that is what 52% of the population are fed up with.
    - tomohawk 8y ago
      It's also popular among communists. The idea of getting rid of anyone who stands in the way of some ideology or belief so that a utopia can be established. Mao killed 45 - 100 million people. Many were starved to death, with food allocated such that anyone who opposed his ideals did not get food. Stalin and Lenin killed their millions, too. Not an athiest? Off to the gulag! Successful farmer or landowner? Off to the gulag! Too successful or competent? Off to the gulag! In today's China, the government is operating concentration camps to "reeducate" people into proper belief systems - presumably so that the communist party's utopia can be achieved. It is estimated as many as a million may be in these camps.
      - jsonne 8y ago
        For what it's worth in the article he brings up Soviet atrocities as well. No place on the political spectrum has the monopoly on being righteous, nor committing terrible crimes.
        crankylinuxuser 8y ago
        What many forget are the dead bodies of capitalism. That isn't mentioned normally, not is it in this first hand account. Capitalism has its roots in the idea that only those who produce get resources. If you are unable/unwilling, you do not deserve anything. And that anything includes: a home, food, water, bathroom, medicine, surgery, dentistry, or all the other essentials needed to live. Along with that, our unique US capitalism also allows for slavery when charged with a crime. We call the Russian and Chinese detention centers "gulags" - we have enshrined their usage in our Constitution. Mao and Stalin killed X millions. I'll accept that without research. How many people has the US killed with lack of health care? How many union strikers were murdered by the National Guard? How many African Americans were killed under lynching and 'police discretion'? How many people were killed because they didn't make enough money to matter? How many communities were poisoned with lead and other environmental pollutants because their community was impoverished? In the end, Capitalists can crow one solid phrase to absolve their 'sins'. And that is, "They brought their suffering and death upon themselves by not choosing better". Am I advocating communism or socialism? No. They have been shown to not work in the previous incarnations around the world. Capitalism works, until people slip through the cracks... And those cracks day by day get ever so larger. I don't know the name of the thing I think of. Maybe its a mashup between socialism and capitalism, so that we all grow together, and that nobody is left behind.
  - GW150914 8y ago
    > Some of the labeling heard today What do you have in mind, in particular? They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people. From the man who is now the president of the country with the world’s largest economy and military. I’m sorry if this bothers people because it’s political, but it’s a fair answer to the weak question asked.
    - mattnewton 8y ago
      Don’t know what’s political about answering that question directly except that it’s from a Trump quote. I suppose most people would prefer everyone just not answer here - in which case I wonder what this article is doing on hacker news at all if we don’t want to have this discussion here.
      - masonic 8y ago
        Except that's not the actual quote.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        evgen 8y ago
        The actual lines are: "They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people." Explain how prior comment differs significantly from the actual quote.
        icebraining 8y ago
        Seems accurate to me: https://youtu.be/Jaz1J0s-cL4?t=27s https://youtu.be/Jaz1J0s-cL4?t=27s
    - jerf 8y ago
      HN is at least 90% anti-Trump. If you're getting downvoted for a Trump criticism, you've screwed up somewhere other than pissing off the three people on HN who have voting privileges and like Trump.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    The demonization of white men.
- delbel 8y ago
  > People are losing their jobs, their careers, their ability to express their views, and their ability to practice their religious beliefs - all for the "greater good". > ... to achieve some utopian state. This is the biggest lie. This is happening on a daily basis on youtube's platform Edit: LOL, your comment just got exposed as insincere argument, hurts doesn't it?
- yesenadam 8y ago
  Do you know the difference between a lie and a falsehood? I think it does a lot of damage in the world, people labelling things as lies when they merely think they're not true. It's very inflammatory. "That's a lie!" says not only "That's not true" but "and you know it". Which often is itself not true. Thus you could be accused of lying yourself. Very often people are lied to in the media[0], then adopt false beliefs, which they then repeat - but they're not lying when they do so, they believe these things. It poisons communication when this word 'lies' is thrown around loosely. People disagree about a lot of things. It usually doesn't mean they're lying about it. Usually you have no idea whether people you don't know are lying or saying false things they believe. How could you know that with certainty. It's not even possible for a sentence to be a lie, in the way you seem to believe. A sentence uttered by a person, yes, but detach it as you did from any speaker, and it can only be true or false. A lie requires specific knowledge in the mind of the particular person uttering the sentence. [0]Whoops - see, I even did it myself. I don't know if that's right.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    The converse is also true: it’s extremely dangerous to avoid the word “lie” when it actually fits. A certain nameless American president constantly gets a free pass on this from news organizations.
  - omegaworks 8y ago
    >A lie requires specific knowledge in the mind of the particular person uttering the sentence. Can you clarify? Are you saying it is impossible to ascertain the intent of the speaker? I appreciate the distinction you are making, it is an important one. To lie is to speak a false statement, coupled with the intent to deceive. What is missing from your assertion is whether we can gage intent and how we do so. Intent is critical to understanding the degree to which we apply a corrective measure. It's the difference between manslaughter and murder.
    - yesenadam 8y ago
      Are you saying it is impossible to ascertain the intent of the speaker? No, not at all. Just that for something to be a lie it needs 1. to be not true, and 2. for the person uttering it to know that it's not true. Hopefully that's entirely uncontroversial. Yes, how to find out what people know, desire, plan, intend etc is another question entirely. Another thing - I don't think you can always neatly divide people's utterances into something they know/believe vs something they don't. e.g. believing in god or not - some have varying levels of belief, depends on mood, some aren't sure what they believe etc, it's often not a simple, unchanging binary 'on or off' situation.
obblekk 8y ago
Although I broadly agree with the author that we should remember the past, I am sad that his tone suggests we are doomed to forget it.
- isodude 8y ago
  Forgetting is a double edged sword, but one needed for us to live in the present. Living in the future or the past is what really opens up for hatred and fear. Unless something acts as a reminder how bad it really was, it will become fairy tales eventually.. "it couldn't have been that bad right?". But it shouldn't hinder us for trying to make it better in the future. Edit: It's up to us all to prove the author wrong, it makes me sad when I talk to people that try really hard to wrap everything in lies to make themselves feel better. Maybe the starting point that dooms is when parents/states tries to smooth over horrible events.
  - philwelch 8y ago
    It's hard to remember the lessons without remembering how we learned them, but it happens sometimes. The founding ideals of the modern world rose from the ashes of the Thirty Years War, and they stuck around pretty well even after that war passed from living memory. Sadly, the lessons learned from the 20th century didn't even seem to survive that long. If anything, the very ideas that the 20th century utterly discredited are poised to overturn even the Enlightenment.
    - isodude 8y ago
      Back then we were relying on tales told from grandparents, or for that matter trades learnt from parents, it seems now that much i dissolved by mega industries or common databases/search indexes. Like we used to remember phone numbers but now it's not needed. Wikipedia can hold all the bad memories so we don't need to. From an energy conservation perspective it's great. But how far should we let it go?
- wetpaws 8y ago
  Human collective knowledge is limited to couple of generations at best. He is not suggesting it, just merely stating facts.
williesleg 8y ago
What's amazing is George Soros profited off these horrific events, and is using his vast amount of cash to keep these horrific events going.
Pica_soO 8y ago
I do no longer think that people actually learn from history. They do so if they percieve to gain a advantage from that, but the advantage of something "normal" like peace and prosperity in europe, is only visible in hindsight. I think, people must be vaccinated against radicalism, again and again, by experiencing the outcomes for themselves. If you are discriminated and robbed in your favorite online game, for no other reason then who you are or your name- without any success when appealing to the "state", you begin to understand what it is like to have been a jew in europe. Another difficult fact remains- only the prosperity of the past and the nuclear weapons kept these dark tides at bay. The politics, the memorials and the activism did & do nothing.
- baq 8y ago
  > I think, people must be vaccinated against radicalism, again and again, by experiencing the outcomes for themselves. but then they'll have autism. seriously though - our grandfathers' tragedies are just political fodder at this point and that's extremely sad. the proud nationalists think that their nations somehow won the war, when in truth they just lost a bit less than nazi germany. in case of Poland, turns out that being on the victorious side didn't really matter much, except perhaps that the goverment can now say that we won the war and thus now we, the grandchildren, deserve more than them, their grandchildren.
- GW150914 8y ago
  If you are discriminated and robbed in your favorite online game, for no other reason then who you are or your name- without any success when appealing to the "state", you begin to understand what it is like to have been a jew in europe. I think I understand what you’re trying to say, but that is a terrible way to say it. On the face of it, no experience you have in an online game comes close to being rounded up and shot in the neck, or sent to a KZ/VZ. Not. Even. Close. It belittles the nightmare of Nazi Germany to compare the lives of people slated for extermination with the experience of having a bad time playing a game. I would strongly urge you to find a better way to express what I think you were trying to say about marginalization and discrimination in a way that doesn’t make a mockery of your own point.
- tehwebguy 8y ago
ksdale 8y ago
I took a class in college that only covered genocide, and if there is one single lesson I took away from that, it is that all of the worst atrocities in the history of the world grow out of a seed of convincing people that there are other people out there who are (for whatever reason) less than them and should be defeated. If those people are less than us, then the normal rules of decency surely don't apply and we should do all we can to win. In the time since I took that class, I've made a giant effort to never attribute what I believe are wrong opinions or bad behavior to some inherent trait. No matter how reprehensible I think someone's opinion, I try to remember that they are a human and deserve decency. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for things we believe are right, but the second we start believing that we are fighting monsters, we become willing to do monstrous things. In the US, there seems to be a growing urge to attribute most political opposition to some sort of ingrained difference and it seems impossible that this attribution could ever lead to any sort of resolution short of armed conflict.
- xfc120 8y ago
  Communism started with the idea that all people are equal. Every time it was tried a dictator quickly emerged, and suddenly people were not so equal. The problem in general is group behavior; groups are dumb and primitive. Strengthening the power of individuals is the only countermeasure.
- daenz 8y ago
  >all of the worst atrocities in the history of the world grow out of a seed of convincing people that there are other people out there who are (for whatever reason) less than them and should be defeated. If those people are less than us, then the normal rules of decency surely don't apply and we should do all we can to win. To piggyback onto this, I think it's important to clarify that this can happen to anyone's political side, and when it does, it is tempting to turn a blind eye to it. For extremists on the right, it's blatant when they hate or hold prejudices against minorities, religions, etc. But if you're on the left, it's easier to rationalize and ignore prejudices or hatred from left extremists against "all white people" or "all men", etc, because, well, that attitude may just be a means to the end that you support. The only difference between the two, though, is one is easier for you to rationalize. That commonality of demonizing an individual person based on physical traits or "otherness" knows no ideology and emerges whenever individuals are willing to sacrifice their own personal decency to achieve tribal goals. If we don't squash that specific kind of behavior whenever and wherever we see it, we'll be repeating it forever. It's not enough to crush one manifestation of tribalism if it means creating a new and just-as-potent version of it.
lixtra 8y ago
> If disaster comes, you will find that all the myths you once cherished are of no use to you. This spring I visited Notre Dame in Paris. I saw four soldiers patroling the street, spread out a few meters apart from each other, one finger close to the triger, barrel pointing to the ground. Reminded me of a patrol in a vietnam movie. A similar scene I saw last year in Italy altough the soldiers were much more relaxed. In Bern, Switzerland the Christmas market was protected by huge concrete blocks wrapped in gift paper. This may be all security theatre. Or the times are really changing. I found "On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century" a good read (the lessons, not the comment). I depends on us simple citizens to carry and defend civilization and avoid disaster.
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  When the IRA was still conducting bombing attacks in London in the 1990's, there were armed soldiers near every government building and landmark. This doesn't seem materially different from then, just omnipresent due to having to defend against the last successful attacks in Europe. Having bollards or the equivalent just seems like good preventative measures after the last few attacks on pedestrians with vehicles - it would be negligent not to do that.
  - dingaling 8y ago
    And conversely in Northern Ireland I haven't seen a soldier on patrol for 20 years. The police are armed here, of course, and Army helicopters still pass overhead on occasion but generally it's an inversion of the days of my youth.
  - mistermann 8y ago
    > This doesn't seem materially different from then It may not be materially different for some limited set of attributes, but it may be materially different for other attributes, like "how did this situation come to be?", or "did certain political decisions contribute to this situation?".
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  Back in the 1970s, during the heyday of far-left terrorist groups, it was quite common for foreign tourists to be shocked at soldiers patrolling with guns in Germany or Italy. There may have been a lull in such things in the following decades, but what you saw is not particularly unprecedented historically and I wouldn’t be too concerned.
expertentipp 8y ago
Referencing modern Poland is uncalled for. At this moment this voice is becoming just another one in a dirty political quarrel. History is still being studied in Poland, no worries Mr. Aronson and Guardian.
- ajuc 8y ago
  Modern Poland is going the nationalist populism way. The article is very much called for, and it is needed. We have a government that builds its ideology on the notion that Poland was always innocent and heroic, Poles were always the victims, we should be proud of our country, anybody who says otherwise is a traitor, leftist, marxist, or other kind of undesirable. They build their support on historic resentment towards Germans (because WW2 but also because now they are leftists and want to put terrorists in our country), EU in general (because they are leftist and lie to us, they only give us money to abuse us, we would be better off outside), Jews (because they are lying that Poles were killing them and helping Germans in WW2, because they want our money from reperations, because they are behind every leftist conspiracy ever). Among the enemies of the people are also private media, NGOs, ecologists, liberal and socialist governments anywhere, liberal media. Whoever criticizes any particular thing government did becomes a part of conspiracy, and then it suffices to show that this guy is in any way connected to any previously ostracized group - and you can safely ignore whatever (s)he says. There's this paranoia that people abroad say "polish death camps" and think that death camps were created by Poles. So they post every single mention in foreign media of the term, and there's public outrage. There was a stupid law recently introduced that was punishing "blaming Polish nation or state for Holocaust or other crimes against humanity". It was unconstutitional obviously, but constutitional tribunal isn't working anymore. It was also stupid, because there were crimes against humanity done by Poles (although on small scale). It was introduced, predictably Israel, USA, and others protested - government used it as a way to portrait everybody opposing this law as a traitor paid by Jews. That was the rhethoric. And USA obviously is only protesting because Israel forces them to (because government at once tries to show USA as an alternative to EU which is the big devil according to them, and to show that USA when it criticizes Poland is the enemy too). It's funny how they contradict themselves sometimes. For like half a year the law was suspended, and government blamed everything evil on Jews for opposing it. There was a huge antisemitic campaign in the media, both traditional (public TV, radio, etc), and social media. People were posting every single story from WW2 where a Jew did something bad (because that makes Poles collaborating with Germans ok somehow :) ). There was a 50 anniversary of 1968 expulsion of Jews from Poland by communist regime. Somehow, despite current government dislike of communists - they managed to make it look like 1968 was bad, but Jews had it coming. USA blocked all high-level meetings between our governments, and that was the end of that. Government backpedaled, law was canceled. But the propaganda remains. It sometimes feels like I'm in 1930s. Have you ever listened to Michałkiewicz or Grzegorz Braun? People like that always were there, but they were marginalized. Nowaydays their rethoric is repeated by prime minister and public TV. It's terrifying to see my own parents buying into this crap. People who were always teaching me to be tolerant, not to believe government when it shows "these people are your enemy". Now they are repeating the same shit that is in TVP. Every few months there's new public enemy - from ecologists, through "homolobby", european courts, NGOs, private media, Jews, France, Israel, USA, Germany, Ireland. Everybody out there is just waiting to destroy our pure, innocent Poland. That is bullshit, and the fact that people are buying into this is scary as hell. I will manage, I'm working in IT. I can go abroad and live well. But I'm also a patriot, and I don't want to move. And I'm very pessimistic about the general direction Poland took recently. It ends with isolated, marginalized Poland outside of EU. And that in turn ends with Poland going the Belarus way - as a "proudly independent" vassal state of Russia. I would very much want to be mistaken, but we're so far hitting every point on the checklist.
nirelCABRON 8y ago
Hacker Jews
- dang 8y ago
  I certainly hope so.
  - pl1234 8y ago
    Why? We have a preponderance of men and that's somehow considered evidence of discrimination against women, with people getting fired over suggesting that it might be due to talent or preference and not discrimination. We have a preponderance of whites and that's considered discrimination against non-whites, with many articles bashing white men. We have a preponderance of jews relative to their population share and that's somehow not evidence of discrimination, the chosen people are above criticism. Whats the difference Dan?
Udik 8y ago
I know only one western country that in the last 50 years has shut a million people in a hermetically sealed ghetto; that installs its own civilian population in some other people's land, that shoots those who protest with live bullets, killing hundreds and injuring tens of thousands; and dehumanizes its victims every day with a "it's us or them" narrative. And it's not in Europe. Actually, it's Aronson's country, Israel. I think that good lessons are valuable in themselves, wherever they might come from. But even to this there is a limit. Lecturing modern Poland on fairness and the lessons of the past while not even mentioning what your own country is doing is just shameless.
- jedmeyers 8y ago
  What is "Aronson's country" exactly? Israel?
  - Udik 8y ago
    There, fixed.
- c_hawkthorne 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trnopolje_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trnopolje_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars
  - Udik 8y ago
    > I know only one western country that in the last 50 years has shut a million people in a hermetically sealed ghetto... You're right: I should have added: ...and that it's happily getting away with it, receiving applause, economic aid and unwavering support by the same powerful countries that like to warn about the lessons of history.
botverse 8y ago
EDIT Seen the backlash I’m getting with the comment, would like to clarify that what sparked it was this sentence: > "No nation has a monopoly on virtue – something that many people, including many of my fellow Israeli citizens, still struggle to understand." Where the author seems to hint to consider all that follows himself. TIDE Very powerful message. I would really want to know what Aronson thinks about the situation in Israel with the Palestinians. Of course not to compare the fate of the Jewish people during the savage years of the Holocaust with this of the Palestinians. But Israel seems to have forgotten the humanity of the Palestinians, striping them from their human rights, or passing laws that could affect the rights of Israeli minorities [0]. Obviously condemning the actions of terrorists, atrocities committed against the people of Israel by Palestinians, and that deserving it’s own discussion, just pointing out that because the number of dead Palestinian people is relevant enough and the author who fought for and lives in Israel, was speaking of when countries do dehumanize people and was hoping that in this case there would be voices in Israel that could disagree with the current situation. [0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nat...
- Udik 8y ago
  Useless, you'll only get downvotes. Very easy to warn others about the perils of de-humanizing a minority, but when you start questioning the mainstream narrative- even if it's a perfect example of the issue- you won't find anybody willing to listen.
- vxNsr 8y ago
  I'm gonna give the answer you don't wanna hear, and that is incredibly unpopular on HN and really any left of center arena. Israel has not forgotten the humanity of the palestinians(1). It has not striped them of their human rights(2) and it has not passed laws that "could affect minorities."(3) (1) Israel takes great care to protect all human life in any conflict and tries especially hard not remove the dignity of or prejudge people who are bent on murdering its people. When rockets are being launched from hospitals and "army" headquarters are in the backrooms of pre-nurseries innocent civilians and children will be caught in the crossfire, whether it's mortar misfires or drone counter attacks. Anyone asking about the imbalance in death counts is really just a dog whistle for "why don't more jews die". When you have an entire city refusing to give up the names of the people responsible for the stabbing and cold blooded murder of a 1 year baby in it's crib (along with the rest of the family) or the kidnapping and murder of 3 teenagers, it may appear like the Israelis don't care about those whose house they are turning upside down but in reality they could just raze the city in a matter of minutes like Assad does in Syria, or SA reacts in Yemen. the fact is that Israel does its utmost to avoid loss of life while being stabbed from behind by Hamas and being led-on by the PLO who do not want peace and are doing everything to destabilize the region at every turn. (2) The laws here are not so clear cut, but at the very least Israel is not responsible to give people living in what is essentially another country free access to its own services, if that means 3 hour long lines because a visa process has been proven ineffective at preventing terrorist attacks then so be it. I'm not really sure if you have anything specific in mind here but until you can show how Israel is stripping people of human rights I don't know what else I can say. (3) This law is no different from many laws that exist across the European and Asian continents. If you would like to argue that all those laws are racist, I wouldn't agree with you, but by singling out Israel for special scrutiny and failing to mention them on a discussion that in fact is about the rise of racism in European countries, you do appear to be guilty of at least some anti-semitic sentiment. I'm not arguing that Israel is faultless but the way you've tried to frame the argument appears at least ignorant or else decidedly malicious.
pier25 8y ago
It seems the author is conveniently forgetting the atrocities Israel is committing.
- JabavuAdams 8y ago
  To conclude that requires a very selective reading of the article, as he explicitly talks about his own country.
  - Udik 8y ago
    Explicitly certainly not. It only mentions Israel in a very passing reference: "No nation has a monopoly on virtue – something that many people, including many of my fellow Israeli citizens, still struggle to understand." Way too little.
- andrewhn 8y ago
  Do you mean the atrocities being committed by the Palestinians? I’m confused.
  - sjeohp 8y ago
    I’m confused. Clearly.
  - Emma_Goldman 8y ago
    Surely you mean this as a provocation? It's clear what s/he said.
- YZF 8y ago
  He did allude to that (EDIT: that conflict). This is a discussion of the Holocaust and the rise of the right in Europe, not a discussion of world conflicts, wrongs and rights, of which there are too many to list. Perhaps more relevant is that, sadly enough, there are quite a few Israelis who are semi-supportive of these right wing attitudes in Europe and elsewhere simply due to their feelings that their enemy's enemy is somehow their friend. Similarly some jewish people in Europe who have been facing rising anti-jewish sentiments and rhetoric might even believe the right wing parties will help with that. This is by no means universal but I think it's a bad idea. In my opinion, this is partly a result of the left-wing biased (or lazy, or idealistic) approach which is helping fuel the fire. Admittedly this is also related to the bubble nature of today's view of reality. It's much easier to people to stay and believe in their bubble than rise to see the whole picture. You can always find anecdotal evidence to support any world view, simply viewing the world through a black and white lens is already a problem. Maybe people who are stressed out tend to do that more often. Let's also not forget that the European (and American) actions or lack of action recently and over many decades are some of the root causes of the refugee crisis which is fuelling these sentiments. Finally the background of the global economy, crisis, and wealth re-distribution are also a factor. When times are bad everyone is looking for someone to blame.
golemiprague 8y ago
I wouldn't listen to someone who couldn't spot the Nazi danger at the time, many Jews left Poland before the war because they spotted the evil looming over them. The lefties today make the same mistakes those Jews who stayed did, ignoring the situation and the problems of globalisation, illegal immigration and mixing of cultures and religions. It is not even an appeal to authority, it is an appeal to romanticism, as if being stuck there and having to fight for your life is some kind of achievement which give you an insight. Smart people don't even get into those situation and I would rather listen to them. My grandparents managed to escape before the war started because they took what Hitler said and what he did at a face value unlike many others like this guy who preferred to bury their face in the sand, all their family died there. Their conclusions are exactly the opposite to this guy, they believe in the need of homogenous nation states and can't believe what the west is doing to themselves. They can see that intolerance and antisemitism is mainly coming from the left these days and they prefer the new right wing parties in Europe over the centre left of Corbyn and its ilk.
horsecaptin 8y ago
I've been a member of some minority almost all my life. On more than one occasion I've been a refugee, a tourist, an immigrant, a high scoring student, the new person. My rules for success as a minority. - If you are the minority, never forget this. Ever. - Don't congregate in a manner that excludes the majority. - Sure, be proud of who you are and where you come from, but remember that the majority are also proud and they have far superior numbers. So, be sure to operate in a manner that does not offend their pride: include them in your celebrations and be there for them in their time of mourning. - Be useful. Find ways to be useful. - Set your goals to be the best example of not just the minority that you belong to but the majority as well. I've found that whenever a minority breaks one of these rules, they do so at their own peril. They needn't break any laws to gain the scorn of the majority.
nkoren 8y ago
"Finally, do not ever imagine that your world cannot collapse, as ours did." This. People like to imagine that there is some kind of corrective force to history, some invisible hand that will, inevitably, push things into balance and restore normality. There is not. Many times in history -- for many peoples, nations, and civilisations -- the world has ended. That is a completely normal thing to happen, albeit extremely unpleasant and very often lethal for those involved. Things are not different this time. If civilisation survives, it will be because people have laboured with great difficulty and courage to make it survive. It has always been thus, and always will be. Do not take it for granted. (Edit: unclear language.)
- jm__87 8y ago
  On the flipside, worrying that the world could collapse at any moment is not a way to live. If things are going to collapse, there is likely nothing you can do as an individual to stop it from happening, so why worry about it. As far as I can think of, all you can reasonably do as an individual to prevent this outcome is try to vote for decent political candidates and do your best to be good to the people around you. These are things that decent, responsible people do to begin with. I don't see how I could use this lesson in any other possible way.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    > If things are going to collapse, there is likely nothing you can do as an individual to stop it from happening, so why worry about it. Because there are some incredibly easy, low cost things you can do to increase your odds of surviving a collapse. Most people aren’t prepared to survive 2 weeks without a grocery store and electricity.
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      Most people will survive just fine for 2 weeks if they have access to reasonably clean water.
      - 8y ago
phonz 8y ago
What is this political garbage doing on hn? He’s just comparing trump to hitler and Stalin — aka beating the dead horse into a bloody, pulpy soup. Trump is not hitler. His use of the term “fake news” has nothing to do with people being sent to concentration camps. This is just an old guy thinking that nothing has changed and that kids will relive his experience, because that’s what old guys do. And they are wrong almost all the time. Like he says, he was a child when things started turning sour, so how could he recognize the signs of things turning sour again? I would really enjoy reading a substantive, informed and thoughtful argument on why trump will be the next hitter. I am so tired of people confusing trade protectionism for outward aggression. Sometimes countries manipulate their trade with other countries as part of a larger plan to keep the economy healthy. It is routine in history. Listening to everyone use the term trade war adamantly is so annoying. They only use that term because it’s inflammatory. Get a life.
phonz 8y ago
I agree that the current generation has lost the lesson of World War Two: that war is never a good option. I personally believe that part of the success of the us post ww2, and part of the really nice culture we had (sans racism etc) is because a huge number of men walking around knew what the end result of violence is. Nowadays, men are very quick to get puffy and to provoke conflicts. They are fools. If someone forced all those belligerent idiots to hide in a fox-hole and watch their buddy’s head explode a few feet away, and all the rest, for months and months, they wouldn’t walk around acting like tough guys. I have seen the most profound violence imaginable, the worst you might see in a war. It has done nothing else than to make me an adamant pacifist. I can not articulate it correctly — all I can say is that at a certain level, violence does things to your mind that you didn’t know about. It’s just not comparable with human existence.
- sigvirt 8y ago
  Ben Ferencz says much the same. [1a] - http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-the-last-nuremberg-prosecutor-alive-wants-the-world-to-know/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-the-last-nuremberg-prosecut... [1b] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14437511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14437511 [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Ferencz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Ferencz
- philwelch 8y ago
  > I agree that the current generation has lost the lesson of World War Two: that war is never a good option. That is the exact opposite of the lesson of World War Two. The notion that war is not a good option and should be avoided by any means necessary is why it took six years and millions of lives to put Hitler down instead of what it would have taken to stop him before he finished building his war machine. The “pacifists” of World War II were the traitors and collaborators who stood by and did nothing, other than surrender their armies and homelands and offer aid and comfort, as Hitler butchered an entire continent and murdered tens of millions of innocents.
  - prmph 8y ago
    > The “pacifists” of World War II were the traitors and collaborators who stood by and did nothing, other than surrender their armies and homelands and offer aid and comfort, as Hitler butchered an entire continent and murdered tens of millions of innocents. You know, the Germans said something similar about jewish "traitors" who supposedly caused their defeat in WW1, and this contributed to the build up to the atrocities of WW2. "That war is never a good option" is precisely the lesson of war, forget about who are supposedly the good guys vs the bad guys. The countries that comprised the allied forces in WW2 have waged aggressive, unjustified wars themselves since then. Are you saying such aggression is the result of them having learned the right lessons from WW2? (i.e., to not be pacifist?)
johnalamosisi 8y ago
I wish the Nazis won the war.
baud147258 8y ago
> My country and much of the continent was destroyed by lies Just like the mountains of lies in our current globally-owned media is destroying our current civilization.

230 points by TheAlchemist 8y ago

> do not underestimate the destructive power of lies When people are unwilling to hold fast to truth, that is when terrible things happen. When someone tells a lie, for example, "the reason you don't have a job and things are bad is because of those Jews". Or, "those Jews are not human - we have to protect ourselves". That is when people who would not normally do bad things do bad things. They can believe they are saving their country from destruction by sub-humans. They can believe that they are in fact performing a heroic action. Some of the labeling heard today seems to be coming close to this, and with terrible consequences. People are losing their jobs, their careers, their ability to express their views, and their ability to practice their religious beliefs - all for the "greater good". Instead of respecting a person's inalienable rights - because they are a human that always deserves this respect - some people are telling themselves that it is OK to disrespect others to achieve some utopian state. This is the biggest lie.

danharaj 8y ago
> Some of the labeling heard today What do you have in mind, in particular?
- happytoexplain 8y ago
  Spreading hatred for groups of people via labels and encouraging their treatment as sub-human is popular rhetoric among nationalist extremists and political conspiracy theorists, but to satisfy the final condition (to be subjected in practice to a significant amount of suppression based on deceitful rhetoric), I think an easy argument could be made to put immigrants in that category, and maybe also homosexuals/trans people. You have to be mindful of that last condition though, since if you dropped it, nearly any group of people, sadly, would qualify as being subjected to such behavior.
  - tajen 8y ago
    That’s all common prejudices you have about right-wing people. But you’re right on one thing: It’s very dangerous. You’re encouraging people to have prejudices to the point of being ok with killing or justifying the killing of white people. Example: White people getting expropriated and killed in South Africa hurts no-one’s feelings, unfortunately. The real question here is not the ethnicities, but sorting lies from truth, moral from amoral. And the killing of people is amoral in ALL cases. Even if the victim is white or male. And that’s what the right-wing have been saying all along, despites layers of lies that are spread over them. It is a real, big big big problem that whites and males are disparaged today to the point of being fired from Google when they protest for illegal mistreatment or put errorneously in prison in UK for reporting on crimes performed by the protected classes, and encouraging the disparaging of people who say just-that is what 52% of the population are fed up with.
  - tomohawk 8y ago
    It's also popular among communists. The idea of getting rid of anyone who stands in the way of some ideology or belief so that a utopia can be established. Mao killed 45 - 100 million people. Many were starved to death, with food allocated such that anyone who opposed his ideals did not get food. Stalin and Lenin killed their millions, too. Not an athiest? Off to the gulag! Successful farmer or landowner? Off to the gulag! Too successful or competent? Off to the gulag! In today's China, the government is operating concentration camps to "reeducate" people into proper belief systems - presumably so that the communist party's utopia can be achieved. It is estimated as many as a million may be in these camps.
    - jsonne 8y ago
      For what it's worth in the article he brings up Soviet atrocities as well. No place on the political spectrum has the monopoly on being righteous, nor committing terrible crimes.
      - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
        What many forget are the dead bodies of capitalism. That isn't mentioned normally, not is it in this first hand account. Capitalism has its roots in the idea that only those who produce get resources. If you are unable/unwilling, you do not deserve anything. And that anything includes: a home, food, water, bathroom, medicine, surgery, dentistry, or all the other essentials needed to live. Along with that, our unique US capitalism also allows for slavery when charged with a crime. We call the Russian and Chinese detention centers "gulags" - we have enshrined their usage in our Constitution. Mao and Stalin killed X millions. I'll accept that without research. How many people has the US killed with lack of health care? How many union strikers were murdered by the National Guard? How many African Americans were killed under lynching and 'police discretion'? How many people were killed because they didn't make enough money to matter? How many communities were poisoned with lead and other environmental pollutants because their community was impoverished? In the end, Capitalists can crow one solid phrase to absolve their 'sins'. And that is, "They brought their suffering and death upon themselves by not choosing better". Am I advocating communism or socialism? No. They have been shown to not work in the previous incarnations around the world. Capitalism works, until people slip through the cracks... And those cracks day by day get ever so larger. I don't know the name of the thing I think of. Maybe its a mashup between socialism and capitalism, so that we all grow together, and that nobody is left behind.
- GW150914 8y ago
  > Some of the labeling heard today What do you have in mind, in particular? They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people. From the man who is now the president of the country with the world’s largest economy and military. I’m sorry if this bothers people because it’s political, but it’s a fair answer to the weak question asked.
  - mattnewton 8y ago
    Don’t know what’s political about answering that question directly except that it’s from a Trump quote. I suppose most people would prefer everyone just not answer here - in which case I wonder what this article is doing on hacker news at all if we don’t want to have this discussion here.
    - masonic 8y ago
      Except that's not the actual quote.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - evgen 8y ago
        The actual lines are: "They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people." Explain how prior comment differs significantly from the actual quote.
      - icebraining 8y ago
        Seems accurate to me: https://youtu.be/Jaz1J0s-cL4?t=27s https://youtu.be/Jaz1J0s-cL4?t=27s
  - jerf 8y ago
    HN is at least 90% anti-Trump. If you're getting downvoted for a Trump criticism, you've screwed up somewhere other than pissing off the three people on HN who have voting privileges and like Trump.
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  The demonization of white men.
delbel 8y ago
> People are losing their jobs, their careers, their ability to express their views, and their ability to practice their religious beliefs - all for the "greater good". > ... to achieve some utopian state. This is the biggest lie. This is happening on a daily basis on youtube's platform Edit: LOL, your comment just got exposed as insincere argument, hurts doesn't it?
yesenadam 8y ago
Do you know the difference between a lie and a falsehood? I think it does a lot of damage in the world, people labelling things as lies when they merely think they're not true. It's very inflammatory. "That's a lie!" says not only "That's not true" but "and you know it". Which often is itself not true. Thus you could be accused of lying yourself. Very often people are lied to in the media[0], then adopt false beliefs, which they then repeat - but they're not lying when they do so, they believe these things. It poisons communication when this word 'lies' is thrown around loosely. People disagree about a lot of things. It usually doesn't mean they're lying about it. Usually you have no idea whether people you don't know are lying or saying false things they believe. How could you know that with certainty. It's not even possible for a sentence to be a lie, in the way you seem to believe. A sentence uttered by a person, yes, but detach it as you did from any speaker, and it can only be true or false. A lie requires specific knowledge in the mind of the particular person uttering the sentence. [0]Whoops - see, I even did it myself. I don't know if that's right.
- mikeash 8y ago
  The converse is also true: it’s extremely dangerous to avoid the word “lie” when it actually fits. A certain nameless American president constantly gets a free pass on this from news organizations.
- omegaworks 8y ago
  >A lie requires specific knowledge in the mind of the particular person uttering the sentence. Can you clarify? Are you saying it is impossible to ascertain the intent of the speaker? I appreciate the distinction you are making, it is an important one. To lie is to speak a false statement, coupled with the intent to deceive. What is missing from your assertion is whether we can gage intent and how we do so. Intent is critical to understanding the degree to which we apply a corrective measure. It's the difference between manslaughter and murder.
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    Are you saying it is impossible to ascertain the intent of the speaker? No, not at all. Just that for something to be a lie it needs 1. to be not true, and 2. for the person uttering it to know that it's not true. Hopefully that's entirely uncontroversial. Yes, how to find out what people know, desire, plan, intend etc is another question entirely. Another thing - I don't think you can always neatly divide people's utterances into something they know/believe vs something they don't. e.g. believing in god or not - some have varying levels of belief, depends on mood, some aren't sure what they believe etc, it's often not a simple, unchanging binary 'on or off' situation.

obblekk 8y ago

Although I broadly agree with the author that we should remember the past, I am sad that his tone suggests we are doomed to forget it.

isodude 8y ago
Forgetting is a double edged sword, but one needed for us to live in the present. Living in the future or the past is what really opens up for hatred and fear. Unless something acts as a reminder how bad it really was, it will become fairy tales eventually.. "it couldn't have been that bad right?". But it shouldn't hinder us for trying to make it better in the future. Edit: It's up to us all to prove the author wrong, it makes me sad when I talk to people that try really hard to wrap everything in lies to make themselves feel better. Maybe the starting point that dooms is when parents/states tries to smooth over horrible events.
- philwelch 8y ago
  It's hard to remember the lessons without remembering how we learned them, but it happens sometimes. The founding ideals of the modern world rose from the ashes of the Thirty Years War, and they stuck around pretty well even after that war passed from living memory. Sadly, the lessons learned from the 20th century didn't even seem to survive that long. If anything, the very ideas that the 20th century utterly discredited are poised to overturn even the Enlightenment.
  - isodude 8y ago
    Back then we were relying on tales told from grandparents, or for that matter trades learnt from parents, it seems now that much i dissolved by mega industries or common databases/search indexes. Like we used to remember phone numbers but now it's not needed. Wikipedia can hold all the bad memories so we don't need to. From an energy conservation perspective it's great. But how far should we let it go?
wetpaws 8y ago
Human collective knowledge is limited to couple of generations at best. He is not suggesting it, just merely stating facts.

williesleg 8y ago

What's amazing is George Soros profited off these horrific events, and is using his vast amount of cash to keep these horrific events going.

Pica_soO 8y ago

I do no longer think that people actually learn from history. They do so if they percieve to gain a advantage from that, but the advantage of something "normal" like peace and prosperity in europe, is only visible in hindsight. I think, people must be vaccinated against radicalism, again and again, by experiencing the outcomes for themselves. If you are discriminated and robbed in your favorite online game, for no other reason then who you are or your name- without any success when appealing to the "state", you begin to understand what it is like to have been a jew in europe. Another difficult fact remains- only the prosperity of the past and the nuclear weapons kept these dark tides at bay. The politics, the memorials and the activism did & do nothing.

baq 8y ago
> I think, people must be vaccinated against radicalism, again and again, by experiencing the outcomes for themselves. but then they'll have autism. seriously though - our grandfathers' tragedies are just political fodder at this point and that's extremely sad. the proud nationalists think that their nations somehow won the war, when in truth they just lost a bit less than nazi germany. in case of Poland, turns out that being on the victorious side didn't really matter much, except perhaps that the goverment can now say that we won the war and thus now we, the grandchildren, deserve more than them, their grandchildren.
GW150914 8y ago
If you are discriminated and robbed in your favorite online game, for no other reason then who you are or your name- without any success when appealing to the "state", you begin to understand what it is like to have been a jew in europe. I think I understand what you’re trying to say, but that is a terrible way to say it. On the face of it, no experience you have in an online game comes close to being rounded up and shot in the neck, or sent to a KZ/VZ. Not. Even. Close. It belittles the nightmare of Nazi Germany to compare the lives of people slated for extermination with the experience of having a bad time playing a game. I would strongly urge you to find a better way to express what I think you were trying to say about marginalization and discrimination in a way that doesn’t make a mockery of your own point.
tehwebguy 8y ago

ksdale 8y ago

I took a class in college that only covered genocide, and if there is one single lesson I took away from that, it is that all of the worst atrocities in the history of the world grow out of a seed of convincing people that there are other people out there who are (for whatever reason) less than them and should be defeated. If those people are less than us, then the normal rules of decency surely don't apply and we should do all we can to win. In the time since I took that class, I've made a giant effort to never attribute what I believe are wrong opinions or bad behavior to some inherent trait. No matter how reprehensible I think someone's opinion, I try to remember that they are a human and deserve decency. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for things we believe are right, but the second we start believing that we are fighting monsters, we become willing to do monstrous things. In the US, there seems to be a growing urge to attribute most political opposition to some sort of ingrained difference and it seems impossible that this attribution could ever lead to any sort of resolution short of armed conflict.

xfc120 8y ago
Communism started with the idea that all people are equal. Every time it was tried a dictator quickly emerged, and suddenly people were not so equal. The problem in general is group behavior; groups are dumb and primitive. Strengthening the power of individuals is the only countermeasure.
daenz 8y ago
>all of the worst atrocities in the history of the world grow out of a seed of convincing people that there are other people out there who are (for whatever reason) less than them and should be defeated. If those people are less than us, then the normal rules of decency surely don't apply and we should do all we can to win. To piggyback onto this, I think it's important to clarify that this can happen to anyone's political side, and when it does, it is tempting to turn a blind eye to it. For extremists on the right, it's blatant when they hate or hold prejudices against minorities, religions, etc. But if you're on the left, it's easier to rationalize and ignore prejudices or hatred from left extremists against "all white people" or "all men", etc, because, well, that attitude may just be a means to the end that you support. The only difference between the two, though, is one is easier for you to rationalize. That commonality of demonizing an individual person based on physical traits or "otherness" knows no ideology and emerges whenever individuals are willing to sacrifice their own personal decency to achieve tribal goals. If we don't squash that specific kind of behavior whenever and wherever we see it, we'll be repeating it forever. It's not enough to crush one manifestation of tribalism if it means creating a new and just-as-potent version of it.

lixtra 8y ago

> If disaster comes, you will find that all the myths you once cherished are of no use to you. This spring I visited Notre Dame in Paris. I saw four soldiers patroling the street, spread out a few meters apart from each other, one finger close to the triger, barrel pointing to the ground. Reminded me of a patrol in a vietnam movie. A similar scene I saw last year in Italy altough the soldiers were much more relaxed. In Bern, Switzerland the Christmas market was protected by huge concrete blocks wrapped in gift paper. This may be all security theatre. Or the times are really changing. I found "On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century" a good read (the lessons, not the comment). I depends on us simple citizens to carry and defend civilization and avoid disaster.

stevenwoo 8y ago
When the IRA was still conducting bombing attacks in London in the 1990's, there were armed soldiers near every government building and landmark. This doesn't seem materially different from then, just omnipresent due to having to defend against the last successful attacks in Europe. Having bollards or the equivalent just seems like good preventative measures after the last few attacks on pedestrians with vehicles - it would be negligent not to do that.
- dingaling 8y ago
  And conversely in Northern Ireland I haven't seen a soldier on patrol for 20 years. The police are armed here, of course, and Army helicopters still pass overhead on occasion but generally it's an inversion of the days of my youth.
- mistermann 8y ago
  > This doesn't seem materially different from then It may not be materially different for some limited set of attributes, but it may be materially different for other attributes, like "how did this situation come to be?", or "did certain political decisions contribute to this situation?".
Mediterraneo10 8y ago
Back in the 1970s, during the heyday of far-left terrorist groups, it was quite common for foreign tourists to be shocked at soldiers patrolling with guns in Germany or Italy. There may have been a lull in such things in the following decades, but what you saw is not particularly unprecedented historically and I wouldn’t be too concerned.

expertentipp 8y ago

Referencing modern Poland is uncalled for. At this moment this voice is becoming just another one in a dirty political quarrel. History is still being studied in Poland, no worries Mr. Aronson and Guardian.

ajuc 8y ago
Modern Poland is going the nationalist populism way. The article is very much called for, and it is needed. We have a government that builds its ideology on the notion that Poland was always innocent and heroic, Poles were always the victims, we should be proud of our country, anybody who says otherwise is a traitor, leftist, marxist, or other kind of undesirable. They build their support on historic resentment towards Germans (because WW2 but also because now they are leftists and want to put terrorists in our country), EU in general (because they are leftist and lie to us, they only give us money to abuse us, we would be better off outside), Jews (because they are lying that Poles were killing them and helping Germans in WW2, because they want our money from reperations, because they are behind every leftist conspiracy ever). Among the enemies of the people are also private media, NGOs, ecologists, liberal and socialist governments anywhere, liberal media. Whoever criticizes any particular thing government did becomes a part of conspiracy, and then it suffices to show that this guy is in any way connected to any previously ostracized group - and you can safely ignore whatever (s)he says. There's this paranoia that people abroad say "polish death camps" and think that death camps were created by Poles. So they post every single mention in foreign media of the term, and there's public outrage. There was a stupid law recently introduced that was punishing "blaming Polish nation or state for Holocaust or other crimes against humanity". It was unconstutitional obviously, but constutitional tribunal isn't working anymore. It was also stupid, because there were crimes against humanity done by Poles (although on small scale). It was introduced, predictably Israel, USA, and others protested - government used it as a way to portrait everybody opposing this law as a traitor paid by Jews. That was the rhethoric. And USA obviously is only protesting because Israel forces them to (because government at once tries to show USA as an alternative to EU which is the big devil according to them, and to show that USA when it criticizes Poland is the enemy too). It's funny how they contradict themselves sometimes. For like half a year the law was suspended, and government blamed everything evil on Jews for opposing it. There was a huge antisemitic campaign in the media, both traditional (public TV, radio, etc), and social media. People were posting every single story from WW2 where a Jew did something bad (because that makes Poles collaborating with Germans ok somehow :) ). There was a 50 anniversary of 1968 expulsion of Jews from Poland by communist regime. Somehow, despite current government dislike of communists - they managed to make it look like 1968 was bad, but Jews had it coming. USA blocked all high-level meetings between our governments, and that was the end of that. Government backpedaled, law was canceled. But the propaganda remains. It sometimes feels like I'm in 1930s. Have you ever listened to Michałkiewicz or Grzegorz Braun? People like that always were there, but they were marginalized. Nowaydays their rethoric is repeated by prime minister and public TV. It's terrifying to see my own parents buying into this crap. People who were always teaching me to be tolerant, not to believe government when it shows "these people are your enemy". Now they are repeating the same shit that is in TVP. Every few months there's new public enemy - from ecologists, through "homolobby", european courts, NGOs, private media, Jews, France, Israel, USA, Germany, Ireland. Everybody out there is just waiting to destroy our pure, innocent Poland. That is bullshit, and the fact that people are buying into this is scary as hell. I will manage, I'm working in IT. I can go abroad and live well. But I'm also a patriot, and I don't want to move. And I'm very pessimistic about the general direction Poland took recently. It ends with isolated, marginalized Poland outside of EU. And that in turn ends with Poland going the Belarus way - as a "proudly independent" vassal state of Russia. I would very much want to be mistaken, but we're so far hitting every point on the checklist.

nirelCABRON 8y ago

Hacker Jews

dang 8y ago
I certainly hope so.
- pl1234 8y ago
  Why? We have a preponderance of men and that's somehow considered evidence of discrimination against women, with people getting fired over suggesting that it might be due to talent or preference and not discrimination. We have a preponderance of whites and that's considered discrimination against non-whites, with many articles bashing white men. We have a preponderance of jews relative to their population share and that's somehow not evidence of discrimination, the chosen people are above criticism. Whats the difference Dan?

Udik 8y ago

I know only one western country that in the last 50 years has shut a million people in a hermetically sealed ghetto; that installs its own civilian population in some other people's land, that shoots those who protest with live bullets, killing hundreds and injuring tens of thousands; and dehumanizes its victims every day with a "it's us or them" narrative. And it's not in Europe. Actually, it's Aronson's country, Israel. I think that good lessons are valuable in themselves, wherever they might come from. But even to this there is a limit. Lecturing modern Poland on fairness and the lessons of the past while not even mentioning what your own country is doing is just shameless.

jedmeyers 8y ago
What is "Aronson's country" exactly? Israel?
- Udik 8y ago
  There, fixed.
c_hawkthorne 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trnopolje_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trnopolje_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars
- Udik 8y ago
  > I know only one western country that in the last 50 years has shut a million people in a hermetically sealed ghetto... You're right: I should have added: ...and that it's happily getting away with it, receiving applause, economic aid and unwavering support by the same powerful countries that like to warn about the lessons of history.

botverse 8y ago

EDIT Seen the backlash I’m getting with the comment, would like to clarify that what sparked it was this sentence: > "No nation has a monopoly on virtue – something that many people, including many of my fellow Israeli citizens, still struggle to understand." Where the author seems to hint to consider all that follows himself. TIDE Very powerful message. I would really want to know what Aronson thinks about the situation in Israel with the Palestinians. Of course not to compare the fate of the Jewish people during the savage years of the Holocaust with this of the Palestinians. But Israel seems to have forgotten the humanity of the Palestinians, striping them from their human rights, or passing laws that could affect the rights of Israeli minorities [0]. Obviously condemning the actions of terrorists, atrocities committed against the people of Israel by Palestinians, and that deserving it’s own discussion, just pointing out that because the number of dead Palestinian people is relevant enough and the author who fought for and lives in Israel, was speaking of when countries do dehumanize people and was hoping that in this case there would be voices in Israel that could disagree with the current situation. [0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nat...

Udik 8y ago
Useless, you'll only get downvotes. Very easy to warn others about the perils of de-humanizing a minority, but when you start questioning the mainstream narrative- even if it's a perfect example of the issue- you won't find anybody willing to listen.
vxNsr 8y ago
I'm gonna give the answer you don't wanna hear, and that is incredibly unpopular on HN and really any left of center arena. Israel has not forgotten the humanity of the palestinians(1). It has not striped them of their human rights(2) and it has not passed laws that "could affect minorities."(3) (1) Israel takes great care to protect all human life in any conflict and tries especially hard not remove the dignity of or prejudge people who are bent on murdering its people. When rockets are being launched from hospitals and "army" headquarters are in the backrooms of pre-nurseries innocent civilians and children will be caught in the crossfire, whether it's mortar misfires or drone counter attacks. Anyone asking about the imbalance in death counts is really just a dog whistle for "why don't more jews die". When you have an entire city refusing to give up the names of the people responsible for the stabbing and cold blooded murder of a 1 year baby in it's crib (along with the rest of the family) or the kidnapping and murder of 3 teenagers, it may appear like the Israelis don't care about those whose house they are turning upside down but in reality they could just raze the city in a matter of minutes like Assad does in Syria, or SA reacts in Yemen. the fact is that Israel does its utmost to avoid loss of life while being stabbed from behind by Hamas and being led-on by the PLO who do not want peace and are doing everything to destabilize the region at every turn. (2) The laws here are not so clear cut, but at the very least Israel is not responsible to give people living in what is essentially another country free access to its own services, if that means 3 hour long lines because a visa process has been proven ineffective at preventing terrorist attacks then so be it. I'm not really sure if you have anything specific in mind here but until you can show how Israel is stripping people of human rights I don't know what else I can say. (3) This law is no different from many laws that exist across the European and Asian continents. If you would like to argue that all those laws are racist, I wouldn't agree with you, but by singling out Israel for special scrutiny and failing to mention them on a discussion that in fact is about the rise of racism in European countries, you do appear to be guilty of at least some anti-semitic sentiment. I'm not arguing that Israel is faultless but the way you've tried to frame the argument appears at least ignorant or else decidedly malicious.

pier25 8y ago

It seems the author is conveniently forgetting the atrocities Israel is committing.

JabavuAdams 8y ago
To conclude that requires a very selective reading of the article, as he explicitly talks about his own country.
- Udik 8y ago
  Explicitly certainly not. It only mentions Israel in a very passing reference: "No nation has a monopoly on virtue – something that many people, including many of my fellow Israeli citizens, still struggle to understand." Way too little.
andrewhn 8y ago
Do you mean the atrocities being committed by the Palestinians? I’m confused.
- sjeohp 8y ago
  I’m confused. Clearly.
- Emma_Goldman 8y ago
  Surely you mean this as a provocation? It's clear what s/he said.
YZF 8y ago
He did allude to that (EDIT: that conflict). This is a discussion of the Holocaust and the rise of the right in Europe, not a discussion of world conflicts, wrongs and rights, of which there are too many to list. Perhaps more relevant is that, sadly enough, there are quite a few Israelis who are semi-supportive of these right wing attitudes in Europe and elsewhere simply due to their feelings that their enemy's enemy is somehow their friend. Similarly some jewish people in Europe who have been facing rising anti-jewish sentiments and rhetoric might even believe the right wing parties will help with that. This is by no means universal but I think it's a bad idea. In my opinion, this is partly a result of the left-wing biased (or lazy, or idealistic) approach which is helping fuel the fire. Admittedly this is also related to the bubble nature of today's view of reality. It's much easier to people to stay and believe in their bubble than rise to see the whole picture. You can always find anecdotal evidence to support any world view, simply viewing the world through a black and white lens is already a problem. Maybe people who are stressed out tend to do that more often. Let's also not forget that the European (and American) actions or lack of action recently and over many decades are some of the root causes of the refugee crisis which is fuelling these sentiments. Finally the background of the global economy, crisis, and wealth re-distribution are also a factor. When times are bad everyone is looking for someone to blame.

golemiprague 8y ago

I wouldn't listen to someone who couldn't spot the Nazi danger at the time, many Jews left Poland before the war because they spotted the evil looming over them. The lefties today make the same mistakes those Jews who stayed did, ignoring the situation and the problems of globalisation, illegal immigration and mixing of cultures and religions. It is not even an appeal to authority, it is an appeal to romanticism, as if being stuck there and having to fight for your life is some kind of achievement which give you an insight. Smart people don't even get into those situation and I would rather listen to them. My grandparents managed to escape before the war started because they took what Hitler said and what he did at a face value unlike many others like this guy who preferred to bury their face in the sand, all their family died there. Their conclusions are exactly the opposite to this guy, they believe in the need of homogenous nation states and can't believe what the west is doing to themselves. They can see that intolerance and antisemitism is mainly coming from the left these days and they prefer the new right wing parties in Europe over the centre left of Corbyn and its ilk.

horsecaptin 8y ago

I've been a member of some minority almost all my life. On more than one occasion I've been a refugee, a tourist, an immigrant, a high scoring student, the new person. My rules for success as a minority. - If you are the minority, never forget this. Ever. - Don't congregate in a manner that excludes the majority. - Sure, be proud of who you are and where you come from, but remember that the majority are also proud and they have far superior numbers. So, be sure to operate in a manner that does not offend their pride: include them in your celebrations and be there for them in their time of mourning. - Be useful. Find ways to be useful. - Set your goals to be the best example of not just the minority that you belong to but the majority as well. I've found that whenever a minority breaks one of these rules, they do so at their own peril. They needn't break any laws to gain the scorn of the majority.

nkoren 8y ago

"Finally, do not ever imagine that your world cannot collapse, as ours did." This. People like to imagine that there is some kind of corrective force to history, some invisible hand that will, inevitably, push things into balance and restore normality. There is not. Many times in history -- for many peoples, nations, and civilisations -- the world has ended. That is a completely normal thing to happen, albeit extremely unpleasant and very often lethal for those involved. Things are not different this time. If civilisation survives, it will be because people have laboured with great difficulty and courage to make it survive. It has always been thus, and always will be. Do not take it for granted. (Edit: unclear language.)

jm__87 8y ago
On the flipside, worrying that the world could collapse at any moment is not a way to live. If things are going to collapse, there is likely nothing you can do as an individual to stop it from happening, so why worry about it. As far as I can think of, all you can reasonably do as an individual to prevent this outcome is try to vote for decent political candidates and do your best to be good to the people around you. These are things that decent, responsible people do to begin with. I don't see how I could use this lesson in any other possible way.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  > If things are going to collapse, there is likely nothing you can do as an individual to stop it from happening, so why worry about it. Because there are some incredibly easy, low cost things you can do to increase your odds of surviving a collapse. Most people aren’t prepared to survive 2 weeks without a grocery store and electricity.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Most people will survive just fine for 2 weeks if they have access to reasonably clean water.
    - 8y ago

phonz 8y ago

What is this political garbage doing on hn? He’s just comparing trump to hitler and Stalin — aka beating the dead horse into a bloody, pulpy soup. Trump is not hitler. His use of the term “fake news” has nothing to do with people being sent to concentration camps. This is just an old guy thinking that nothing has changed and that kids will relive his experience, because that’s what old guys do. And they are wrong almost all the time. Like he says, he was a child when things started turning sour, so how could he recognize the signs of things turning sour again? I would really enjoy reading a substantive, informed and thoughtful argument on why trump will be the next hitter. I am so tired of people confusing trade protectionism for outward aggression. Sometimes countries manipulate their trade with other countries as part of a larger plan to keep the economy healthy. It is routine in history. Listening to everyone use the term trade war adamantly is so annoying. They only use that term because it’s inflammatory. Get a life.

phonz 8y ago

I agree that the current generation has lost the lesson of World War Two: that war is never a good option. I personally believe that part of the success of the us post ww2, and part of the really nice culture we had (sans racism etc) is because a huge number of men walking around knew what the end result of violence is. Nowadays, men are very quick to get puffy and to provoke conflicts. They are fools. If someone forced all those belligerent idiots to hide in a fox-hole and watch their buddy’s head explode a few feet away, and all the rest, for months and months, they wouldn’t walk around acting like tough guys. I have seen the most profound violence imaginable, the worst you might see in a war. It has done nothing else than to make me an adamant pacifist. I can not articulate it correctly — all I can say is that at a certain level, violence does things to your mind that you didn’t know about. It’s just not comparable with human existence.

sigvirt 8y ago
Ben Ferencz says much the same. [1a] - http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-the-last-nuremberg-prosecutor-alive-wants-the-world-to-know/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-the-last-nuremberg-prosecut... [1b] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14437511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14437511 [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Ferencz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Ferencz
philwelch 8y ago
> I agree that the current generation has lost the lesson of World War Two: that war is never a good option. That is the exact opposite of the lesson of World War Two. The notion that war is not a good option and should be avoided by any means necessary is why it took six years and millions of lives to put Hitler down instead of what it would have taken to stop him before he finished building his war machine. The “pacifists” of World War II were the traitors and collaborators who stood by and did nothing, other than surrender their armies and homelands and offer aid and comfort, as Hitler butchered an entire continent and murdered tens of millions of innocents.
- prmph 8y ago
  > The “pacifists” of World War II were the traitors and collaborators who stood by and did nothing, other than surrender their armies and homelands and offer aid and comfort, as Hitler butchered an entire continent and murdered tens of millions of innocents. You know, the Germans said something similar about jewish "traitors" who supposedly caused their defeat in WW1, and this contributed to the build up to the atrocities of WW2. "That war is never a good option" is precisely the lesson of war, forget about who are supposedly the good guys vs the bad guys. The countries that comprised the allied forces in WW2 have waged aggressive, unjustified wars themselves since then. Are you saying such aggression is the result of them having learned the right lessons from WW2? (i.e., to not be pacifist?)

johnalamosisi 8y ago

I wish the Nazis won the war.

baud147258 8y ago

> My country and much of the continent was destroyed by lies Just like the mountains of lies in our current globally-owned media is destroying our current civilization.