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Actually, time to look beyond the whole Java ecosystem. After the claims Oracle made during the Google trial (such as APIs and method signatures being patent-a
by jeswin 8y ago
Actually, time to look beyond the whole Java ecosystem.
After the claims Oracle made during the Google trial (such as APIs and method signatures being patent-able), it is clear that one can't work on the Java platform without infringing Oracle's IP. If Oracle doesn't sue you now, it can sue you when it makes financial sense to do so.
.Net looks like a much better alternative, with a patent pledge and ECMA standardization. Although to be fair, Microsoft is still a supporter of patent lobbies.
- chaostheory 8y agoTypeScript (https://www.typescriptlang.org/ https://www.typescriptlang.org/) is a good starting point. If you use nestjs (http://nestjs.com/ http://nestjs.com/), it has dependency injection as well. Pairs with Angular nicely.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- narrator 8y agoI've worked some in Typescript and I like it. In fact, it looks like it's going to be the next great enterprise language that's not Java or .Net. Am I delusional?
- AlexCoventry 8y agoI like it compared to javascript, but I think it would be crazy to use it for backend work. I think making typescript happy probably saved me more time than it cost, but it's pretty janky, even compared to similar type systems like mypy. The ability to lie about types caused me quite a bit of confusion, with some libraries, especially immutable.js. Next time I want to develop a frontend system, I think I'll try reasonml.
- ttty 8y agoIt's pretty cool actually. I used node because I can do client side prediction and server side validation with the same code. Note having client and server side in TS, means that I get completion for API calls from client to server side.
- snaky 8y agoThe next great language for enterprise web-frontends, maybe.
- chaostheory 8y agoHave you used it?
- ssijak 8y agoHow can you compare nodejs runtime and java runtime? When you take into account traditional Java uses
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- chaostheory 8y agoBecause I agree with the parent's post: "Actually, time to look beyond the whole Java ecosystem." If you're thinking about life without Java, Typescript is interesting. Is it perfect? No, but it's evolving quickly, has traction, and the ecosystem is pretty good.
- pvg 8y agoit is clear that one can't work on the Java platform without infringing Oracle's IP. That's a pretty extreme interpretation. Most people aren't trying to ship Java-compatible runtimes, as Google did,
- jake_the_third 8y agoI think it's a reasonable interpretation and I agree with GP. APIs used to be seen as fair use and a way to compete, in the similar way to how IBM-compatibles are seen. However, when it became clear to Oracle that there is money to be had, they changed the very definition of copyright to get their fill. What's to say they wont mutate some other aspect of IP law in the future just to make you liable like they did with google? If you're big enough, they will come after you. I think it's perfectly rational - and i'd argue smart - to cut them off early before it's too late.
- pjmlp 8y agoGoogle had the opportunity to buy Sun after screwing it up and preferred not to. "Triangulation 245: James Gosling" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYw3X4RZv6Y&feature=youtu.be&t=57m42s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYw3X4RZv6Y&feature=youtu.be... If IBM had not given up to buy Sun, I am pretty sure they would have done likewise. Plenty of JVM vendors are selling their versions without getting into trouble by playing by the rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines#Active_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines#...
- icebraining 8y agoI'm not sure this is relevant; regardless of Google's actions, trying to make APIs copyrightable is a dangerous abuse of the system.
- v_lisivka 8y agoSo, if I want to ship with OpenJDK, I will need to buy Sun? And if I want to ship with Wine, I will need to buy M$?
- pjmlp 8y agoPlenty of JVM vendors are happily selling their own versions, playing by the rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines#Active_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines#... Google had the option to buy Sun after helping to their downfall, they have chosen not to spend the money to own Java. Now they get to spend on lawyers instead.
- jeswin 8y agoI guess what I'm saying is that we should dump a non-free platform ("non-free", as you seem to agree) for an alternative that offers freedom. People have certainly learnt their lessons that the stewards cannot be trusted - they could get bought out as with Sun or their management could change any time. How users rejected Facebook's React License speaks of better awareness on these issues and is welcome.
- pjmlp 8y agoLooking at the tools and libraries I get to use with Java, .NET, OS X/iOS, Android, Qt and the ones I get with the free alternatives, I rather stay with the former.
- repolfx 8y agoThey're all open source licensed. Android even uses OpenJDK code these days. What you're looking for goes beyond any traditional notion of free software, in the Stallmanist sense.
- bhaak 8y agoCan you elaborate on Google helping in Sun's downfall. I seem to be missing a historical bit there.
- user5994461 8y agoTo be confirmed but I recall that Sun offered to license Java to Google, for usage on Android. Google didn't want to pay a dime or acknowledge that a license a needed. Long story short, Oracle bought java and it's back to square one, with layers and court this time.
- dragonwriter 8y ago> After the claims Oracle made during the Google trial (such as APIs and method signatures being patent-able), Copyrightable. > it is clear that one can't work on the Java platform without infringing Oracle's IP. That's not at all clear. After the third time Oracle v. Google gets ruled on by the trial court, it will undoubtedly be appealed to the Federal Circuit again. Whatever happens there, it is likely at least Google (given how the Federal Circuit has constrained what must happen at the District Court in the prior Appeal) and possibly Oracle will attempt an appeal to the Supreme Court. After that (whether the Supreme Court hears the case or not, but especially if they do), then what the law is in this area may be clear. Until then, all that is clear is what the Federal Circuit’s view of Ninth Circuit case law is, which as precedent is binding on no other court (any court bound by Ninth Circuit case law is bound by the actual case law of the Circuit, not the Federal Circuit’s interpretation of it) and, for litigants, has predictive power only for cases with patent claims that also raise similar copyright issues, and which arise out of districts in the Ninth Circuit.
- fulafel 8y agoPick Clojure, Scala or JRuby instead of Java if you need to start off on the JVM, to hedge against this risk.
- int_19h 8y agoHow does this hedge the risks? Those are still built on top of the JDK.
- fulafel 8y agoYou can get off the JDK if needed, because there are good non-JVM implementations of those languages.
- flurdy 8y agoCurrently primarily on the JDK . But enough abstraction to migrate. Scala, for example, has a mature scala.js VM and an emerging Scala Native VM. [1] http://www.scala-js.org http://www.scala-js.org [2] http://www.scala-native.org http://www.scala-native.org
- threeseed 8y agoI do a lot of development in ScalaJS. And what you are talking about is just ridiculous. There are very few real world (if any) Scala projects that don't rely on least some Java based libraries. Either directly or through transitive dependencies.
- fulafel 8y agoIf it's anything like Clojure/ClojureScript, the port would require work but be straightforward in most cases. Many people already use ClojureScript on Node instead of JVM Clojure. If you rely on JVM-only libraries for your core domain functionality, things become harder of course.
- chvid 8y agoHad Microsoft owned Java it probably would have acted in the same way towards Google. The versions mentioned here are strict Java compatible in that they follow a well-defined standard and an elaborate test suite. Quite different from Java Android.
- jsiepkes 8y agoYour suggesting .net as an alternative but ironically the licensing of Java is largely shaped due to the Sun vs Microsoft lawsuit. Microsoft tried to do their famous Embrace, Extend, extinguish on Java (and failed: https://www.cnet.com/news/sun-microsoft-settle-java-suit/ https://www.cnet.com/news/sun-microsoft-settle-java-suit/ ). Its only been a couple of years that Microsoft has been behaving "better". I suggest you read up on the history of Java, Android, Google and Microsoft because you also seem to be unaware what Android Oracle vs Google was really about; Its wasn't about patents, it was about copyright. You know what they say about history: Those who don't know it are doomed to repeat it.
- coldtea 8y ago>Its only been a couple of years that Microsoft has been behaving "better" So? Oracle has never behaved good, so there's that. Do you expect a MS regression? Besides MS has made some concrete efforts to clear things, like a pledge to not sue over patents, an ECMA standard, etc. >I suggest you read up on the history of Java, Android, Google and Microsoft because you also seem to be unaware what Android Oracle vs Google was really about; Its wasn't about patents, it was about copyright. Same difference if Oracle ends up suing you for recreating Java APIs.
- Hello71 8y ago> Same difference if Oracle ends up suing you for recreating Java APIs. Not at all. In a copyright case, you can argue fair use, as Google did.
- coldtea 8y agoYeah, but how about not there being a case, and not having to argue (and pay laywers and such) at all?
- Agathos 8y agoIf you're arguing fair user, you've already lost. That's a matter of opinion so it has to go all the way to a jury verdict. That means there's no guarantee and even if you win, you have to pay a couple million for the billable hours. You want a defense that's so obvious, the judge will throw out any case against you on the first day.
- oldpond 8y agoI agree Java is dying, but so is .Net. Microsoft is trying it's best, but .Net Core is no where near as popular as .Net 3.5. (google trends). Embrace the Beam. :)
- jpalomaki 8y agoMy feeling is that .NET core is just starting to gather steam. I think it took some time before developers understood what was happening (and probably still quite many .NET developers could not describe the differences). This Google Trends search shows .NET Core as leading since February 2017 [1] [1] https://trends.google.fi/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=.net%20core,.net%203.5 https://trends.google.fi/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=....
- geezerjay 8y agoIn your opinion what software platform will replace java and .net?
- oldpond 8y agoElixir and the Erlang Beam are eating their lunch right now. Vastly more scalable and a joy to program.
- kod 8y agohttps://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=java&l= https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=java&l= 26,689 java jobs https://www.indeed.com/q-erlang-jobs.html https://www.indeed.com/q-erlang-jobs.html 83 erlang jobs
- pjmlp 8y agoTo add to it, as OP was mentioning Java and .NET being taken over Elixir https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=.net&l= https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=.net&l= 56,630 .NET jobs
- pjmlp 8y agoOnly on SV coffee shops. My world is pretty much divided between Java and .NET, with a sprinkle of C++.
- village-idiot 8y agoIIRC, if Oracle declines to protect its IP because you’re not worthy of suing yet, then they actually weaken their legal ownership of the IP.
- kweks 8y agoThe legal area you are probably referring to is trademark law. If you do not defend a trademark, the mark risks becoming diluted, and is open to overturn. ( https://secureyourtrademark.com/blog/trademark-101-can-lose-trademark/ https://secureyourtrademark.com/blog/trademark-101-can-lose-... ) Patents do not lose their validity if undefended.
- village-idiot 8y agoWhat about copyright? I believe the Java API issue was about copyright.
- vesak 8y ago> Actually, time to look beyond the whole Java ecosystem. So why not Unix instead of *VM? It's been stable for quite some time, and offers massively better tools than these two alternatives.
- carlosrg 8y agoThe .NET ecosystem is minuscule compared to Java, especially when it comes to alternative languages running on the virtual machine. So no, for a lot of people it's not a real alternative.
- severino 8y agoLol, after reading the headline, I knew somebody was going to make a "time to look beyond Java" comment. It's a classic: it doesn't matter when or where, or if it makes sense or not... somebody has to say it. However I wasn't expecting the same guy to actually promote .net, which is exactly a Java clone (created soon after the justice told Microsoft to stop trying to harm Java with this J++ thing) which only ran on Windows. It still does, because .net core is just a subset of the entire platform. But it's got a big corporation behind dictating its future development which poses the same threats as Oracle. So given nobody can predict the future right now, I think I'd better keep using the long time open source, community focused and cross-platform alternative, which happens to be Java.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- HNNewer 8y agoHope Go could take it
- pjmlp 8y agoFirst they need to add support for generics, enumerations, dynamic loading, OSes supported by Java....