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> followed by the bit about men becoming less male. This is pretty obvious without any research (papers). The difference between my generation and our childre

> followed by the bit about men becoming less male. This is pretty obvious without any research (papers). The difference between my generation and our children is already staggering in this regard. Not sure if that's just change in culture or physiological though; maybe a bit of both?

zaroth 8y ago
I resisted the urge to joke that this finally explains millenials, because it’s exactly that response which leads to the dismissive reactions this trend is being met with. A couple days ago I shared a NYT article with my wife because it was such a strange window into evolving gender standards [1] and the next day a friend of hers shared another story which took it to a whole new level [2]. I could not help but tie it all together in my mind with TFA and dropping testosterone levels, but god help me for admitting it here. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/style/modern-love-he-asked-permission-to-touch-but-not-to-ghost.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/style/modern-love-he-aske... [2] - https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/imagining-a-better-boyhood/562232/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/imagining...
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Jesus Christ, #2 sounds dangerously like the parent pushing her viewpoints on the poor kid.
  - ScottBurson 8y ago
    Where do you see that? I don't get that at all. It clearly sounds like his decision to wear dresses — the mother is just reflecting on the implications of that choice.
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      To me, it sounds like it’s got that tone. Like if your communist friend tells you, “My younger son just asked me why the proletariat allow the capital class to maintain a reserve army of labour. He also told me he wants to go to his third grade class dressed as Engels to protest the violence inherent in the system.” Makes me a little ... queasy. FWIW I’m not particularly bothered by the concept that a little kid may want to wear dresses. It’s just the tone in the story seems a bit ... not reputable.
      - Izkata 8y ago
        I read it almost exactly halfway between what you two do: She read waay too much into one of her kid's specific preferences, and accidentally pushed him into dresses because of her own beliefs. Take myself for example, and imagine what that mother would have thought: Up until ~14 I wore various old shirts from my parents to bed and on weekends, which were long enough to look like a dress on me, but it had nothing to do with liking dresses. It had to do with regular clothes being too stifling to be comfortable on the weekend, pajamas being too warm, and me not having confidence to just go around in only underwear.
    - badcede 8y ago
      For children, it's always about what the parents want. Children will do anything for their parents. Kids don't put themselves in news articles. It's the parents who do it, but they always say the child spontaneously behaved that way.
- vonseel 8y ago
  How do you guys get past paywalls like #2? Seems increasingly more sites have paywalls and I can’t imagine people are subscribing to multiple news providers.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    Sorry, just fixed the link to go direct to The Atlantic where there doesn’t appear to be a paywall.
jayd16 8y ago
You can also make the argument just as easily if not easier that women are becoming more manly. Seems like these trends would be dominated by social change and it's silly to assume any kind of physiological difference without a solid study.
- tluyben2 8y ago
  Yes, I agree with you. It seems to be a social thing. But it seems to be the case worldwide so maybe there is a physiological component; would like to see studied. I see that young people today are absolutely behaving different than my generation but also than my parents and grandparents and great grandparents. I mean to say that my father, grandfathers and great grandfathers were all rather similar while they are all really different than the current generation. I think I like the current situation better. But yes, this needs solid studies if someone someone would be interested in finding the cause; not guessing or speculation.
gaius 8y ago
Yes, men today much weaker than their fathers https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a19526832/grip-strength-weaker-today/ https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a19526832/grip-strength-w...
craftyguy 8y ago
> The difference between my generation and our children is already staggering in this regard. Not sure if that's just change in culture or physiological though; maybe a bit of both? Said every parent about their children's generation since the dawn of human civilization..[0], [1] 0. http://mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything http://mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaint... 1. https://www.bartleby.com/73/195.html https://www.bartleby.com/73/195.html
- tluyben2 8y ago
  Yeah , this is about a particular trait that is not in either of the linked articles though. You took what I said out of context which makes it a platitude.

zaroth 8y ago

I resisted the urge to joke that this finally explains millenials, because it’s exactly that response which leads to the dismissive reactions this trend is being met with. A couple days ago I shared a NYT article with my wife because it was such a strange window into evolving gender standards [1] and the next day a friend of hers shared another story which took it to a whole new level [2]. I could not help but tie it all together in my mind with TFA and dropping testosterone levels, but god help me for admitting it here. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/style/modern-love-he-asked-permission-to-touch-but-not-to-ghost.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/style/modern-love-he-aske... [2] - https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/imagining-a-better-boyhood/562232/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/imagining...

scarejunba 8y ago
Jesus Christ, #2 sounds dangerously like the parent pushing her viewpoints on the poor kid.
- ScottBurson 8y ago
  Where do you see that? I don't get that at all. It clearly sounds like his decision to wear dresses — the mother is just reflecting on the implications of that choice.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    To me, it sounds like it’s got that tone. Like if your communist friend tells you, “My younger son just asked me why the proletariat allow the capital class to maintain a reserve army of labour. He also told me he wants to go to his third grade class dressed as Engels to protest the violence inherent in the system.” Makes me a little ... queasy. FWIW I’m not particularly bothered by the concept that a little kid may want to wear dresses. It’s just the tone in the story seems a bit ... not reputable.
    - Izkata 8y ago
      I read it almost exactly halfway between what you two do: She read waay too much into one of her kid's specific preferences, and accidentally pushed him into dresses because of her own beliefs. Take myself for example, and imagine what that mother would have thought: Up until ~14 I wore various old shirts from my parents to bed and on weekends, which were long enough to look like a dress on me, but it had nothing to do with liking dresses. It had to do with regular clothes being too stifling to be comfortable on the weekend, pajamas being too warm, and me not having confidence to just go around in only underwear.
  - badcede 8y ago
    For children, it's always about what the parents want. Children will do anything for their parents. Kids don't put themselves in news articles. It's the parents who do it, but they always say the child spontaneously behaved that way.
vonseel 8y ago
How do you guys get past paywalls like #2? Seems increasingly more sites have paywalls and I can’t imagine people are subscribing to multiple news providers.
- zaroth 8y ago
  Sorry, just fixed the link to go direct to The Atlantic where there doesn’t appear to be a paywall.

jayd16 8y ago

You can also make the argument just as easily if not easier that women are becoming more manly. Seems like these trends would be dominated by social change and it's silly to assume any kind of physiological difference without a solid study.

tluyben2 8y ago
Yes, I agree with you. It seems to be a social thing. But it seems to be the case worldwide so maybe there is a physiological component; would like to see studied. I see that young people today are absolutely behaving different than my generation but also than my parents and grandparents and great grandparents. I mean to say that my father, grandfathers and great grandfathers were all rather similar while they are all really different than the current generation. I think I like the current situation better. But yes, this needs solid studies if someone someone would be interested in finding the cause; not guessing or speculation.

gaius 8y ago

Yes, men today much weaker than their fathers https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a19526832/grip-strength-weaker-today/ https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a19526832/grip-strength-w...

craftyguy 8y ago

> The difference between my generation and our children is already staggering in this regard. Not sure if that's just change in culture or physiological though; maybe a bit of both? Said every parent about their children's generation since the dawn of human civilization..[0], [1] 0. http://mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything http://mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaint... 1. https://www.bartleby.com/73/195.html https://www.bartleby.com/73/195.html

tluyben2 8y ago
Yeah , this is about a particular trait that is not in either of the linked articles though. You took what I said out of context which makes it a platitude.