4 ms·

It's also blatantly unconstitutional because it discriminates against the sects of Islam that don't allow loans with interest (and that's the only way to build

It's also blatantly unconstitutional because it discriminates against the sects of Islam that don't allow loans with interest (and that's the only way to build "credit").

InitialLastName 8y ago
The constitution only applies to the federal government. You might mean illegally discriminatory per the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which disallows businesses to discriminate on the grounds of religion. Even that, though, might only be applicable Equifax's customers, since those are the businesses who would be denying service to people without credit histories.
- tboyd47 8y ago
  Thanks, I misspoke. IANAL but I still think Equifax itself is in the wrong. You can't expect businesses that deal in credit to skip due diligence on their customers. Equifax (and the other 2) get to define creditworthiness for all these other businesses.
  - abraham_lincoln 8y ago
    That would be libel, then.
  - g051051 8y ago
    > Equifax (and the other 2) get to define creditworthiness for all these other businesses. They do not. The CRAs provide the information, and the individual businesses decide what their limits are. A lot of businesses standardize on FICO scores, which just use CRA data. So a business decides what's acceptable, based on the info from CRAs and the model from FICO.
spaceribs 8y ago
Realizing in my twenties that not having a credit card was hurting my credit score, that really summed up to me how loathsome and manipulative the entire system is. For those who defend the credit history system, where was the consideration that I was mature enough to limit my spending and save for future expenditures rather than use a credit card? Where was the consideration to avoiding unnecessary risk entirely and still paying my bills?
- tboyd47 8y ago
  Bankers' attitudes about it make it even more infuriating. Whenever I'm at the bank I get asked, "Have you considered taking a credit card to start building your credit?" When I patiently explain why I can't do that, their response is usually to just reiterate how important it is and how irresponsible I'm being. I've never seen a salesperson in any other industry do this. When I ask waiters for non-pork substitutes, they don't come back with, "Listen, I know you don't eat pork but you should get the bacon anyway because it's really good." One time the lady asked me, how they are supposed to make money from zero-interest loans? How should I know? You're the finance expert. I didn't come in here looking for a loan. You asked me!
  - spaceribs 8y ago
    What I want to see out of this or future generations is a culture of never-debts, who responsibly save, invest, and not tie their entire lives to credit ratings, shiny garbage, and what wall street wants. The biggest con job on the American middle class was the 401k though, how else could people be so fashioned against their own interests than to emotionally tie their future so intimately with how the stock market is doing. I'm not holding my breath on things changing though...
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      Debt is valuable, man. It fuels growth. Frequently the guy who can do things isn't the guy with money. Debt is one means of the doer guy acquiring the money to do.
      - spaceribs 8y ago
        Debt isn't valuable, investment is.
g051051 8y ago
How so? A CRA will just report that a loan is paid on time or not. If you can get an interest free loan, and you pay it as agreed, that'll get reported same as any other loan.
- tboyd47 8y ago
  Really? Where can one get these "interest free loans?"
  - g051051 8y ago
    There are companies that provide "Islamic" or "Shariah-compliant" mortgages. I don't understand the model, but they claim there's no interest involved.
    - vkou 8y ago
      They buy the house for, say, $200,000 from the seller. They then sell it to you for $400,000, made payable in equal-sized payments over 25 years.
      - lotsofpulp 8y ago
        The key difference would be what happens if you stop paying. Otherwise it’s just a lease with a purchase option at the end. If you can walk away from the lease with no further repercussions, then I can buy that it’s not technically a loan. If the lessor can pursue you for further payments or charges you fees and etc, then it’s just a regular loan with built in interest rate, and it’s a childish way to attempt to get around “interest”.
        scarejunba 8y ago
        Religion is full of these things, hermano. Here's another example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode
UncleEntity 8y ago
Out of pure curiosity: why would someone who has no desire to obtain credit care if a credit rating agency hampered their ability to build credit?
- tboyd47 8y ago
  It affects your life in a whole lot of other ways. Car rentals, apartment applications, etc.
- g051051 8y ago
  CRA information gets used in any situation where there are payments over time, even if they aren't "credit" situations. Renting, getting utilities, etc.
  - abraham_lincoln 8y ago
    Also, car insurance rates.
  - UncleEntity 8y ago
    All the places I've rented only cared if there was an eviction on your record and I've never had an issue getting utilities -- sure, they usually want a deposit since I have a bad credit rating because I'm horrible at paying bills on time but they always give me service. The last place I rented started the eviction process the very same afternoon the "grace period" ended -- think I was off doing reserve stuff that weekend or simply forgot -- and that caused me to not be able to move into a fancy apartment complex once upon a time (though, mostly, they were using it as an excuse to discriminate against a "dirty truck driver" who didn't fit the kind of people they wanted in their yuppie complex, which they basically told me) but my current landlord could care less, as long as you pay your rent (not necessarily on time) and don't cause any problems you're golden.
    - niij 8y ago
      Why would an apartment owner want to rent to someone who had been evicted? I would assume that would be the #1 thing they look out for. Applicants who didn't hold up their end of a rental agreement is a strong indicator. If your employer paid you late because they were "bad at paying their bills" you'd be pretty upset, as would most people.

It's also blatantly unconstitutional because it discriminates against the sects of Islam that don't allow loans with interest (and that's the only way to build "credit").

InitialLastName 8y ago

The constitution only applies to the federal government. You might mean illegally discriminatory per the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which disallows businesses to discriminate on the grounds of religion. Even that, though, might only be applicable Equifax's customers, since those are the businesses who would be denying service to people without credit histories.

tboyd47 8y ago
Thanks, I misspoke. IANAL but I still think Equifax itself is in the wrong. You can't expect businesses that deal in credit to skip due diligence on their customers. Equifax (and the other 2) get to define creditworthiness for all these other businesses.
- abraham_lincoln 8y ago
  That would be libel, then.
- g051051 8y ago
  > Equifax (and the other 2) get to define creditworthiness for all these other businesses. They do not. The CRAs provide the information, and the individual businesses decide what their limits are. A lot of businesses standardize on FICO scores, which just use CRA data. So a business decides what's acceptable, based on the info from CRAs and the model from FICO.

spaceribs 8y ago

Realizing in my twenties that not having a credit card was hurting my credit score, that really summed up to me how loathsome and manipulative the entire system is. For those who defend the credit history system, where was the consideration that I was mature enough to limit my spending and save for future expenditures rather than use a credit card? Where was the consideration to avoiding unnecessary risk entirely and still paying my bills?

tboyd47 8y ago
Bankers' attitudes about it make it even more infuriating. Whenever I'm at the bank I get asked, "Have you considered taking a credit card to start building your credit?" When I patiently explain why I can't do that, their response is usually to just reiterate how important it is and how irresponsible I'm being. I've never seen a salesperson in any other industry do this. When I ask waiters for non-pork substitutes, they don't come back with, "Listen, I know you don't eat pork but you should get the bacon anyway because it's really good." One time the lady asked me, how they are supposed to make money from zero-interest loans? How should I know? You're the finance expert. I didn't come in here looking for a loan. You asked me!
- spaceribs 8y ago
  What I want to see out of this or future generations is a culture of never-debts, who responsibly save, invest, and not tie their entire lives to credit ratings, shiny garbage, and what wall street wants. The biggest con job on the American middle class was the 401k though, how else could people be so fashioned against their own interests than to emotionally tie their future so intimately with how the stock market is doing. I'm not holding my breath on things changing though...
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Debt is valuable, man. It fuels growth. Frequently the guy who can do things isn't the guy with money. Debt is one means of the doer guy acquiring the money to do.
    - spaceribs 8y ago
      Debt isn't valuable, investment is.

g051051 8y ago

How so? A CRA will just report that a loan is paid on time or not. If you can get an interest free loan, and you pay it as agreed, that'll get reported same as any other loan.

tboyd47 8y ago
Really? Where can one get these "interest free loans?"
- g051051 8y ago
  There are companies that provide "Islamic" or "Shariah-compliant" mortgages. I don't understand the model, but they claim there's no interest involved.
  - vkou 8y ago
    They buy the house for, say, $200,000 from the seller. They then sell it to you for $400,000, made payable in equal-sized payments over 25 years.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      The key difference would be what happens if you stop paying. Otherwise it’s just a lease with a purchase option at the end. If you can walk away from the lease with no further repercussions, then I can buy that it’s not technically a loan. If the lessor can pursue you for further payments or charges you fees and etc, then it’s just a regular loan with built in interest rate, and it’s a childish way to attempt to get around “interest”.
      - scarejunba 8y ago
        Religion is full of these things, hermano. Here's another example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode

UncleEntity 8y ago

Out of pure curiosity: why would someone who has no desire to obtain credit care if a credit rating agency hampered their ability to build credit?

tboyd47 8y ago
It affects your life in a whole lot of other ways. Car rentals, apartment applications, etc.
g051051 8y ago
CRA information gets used in any situation where there are payments over time, even if they aren't "credit" situations. Renting, getting utilities, etc.
- abraham_lincoln 8y ago
  Also, car insurance rates.
- UncleEntity 8y ago
  All the places I've rented only cared if there was an eviction on your record and I've never had an issue getting utilities -- sure, they usually want a deposit since I have a bad credit rating because I'm horrible at paying bills on time but they always give me service. The last place I rented started the eviction process the very same afternoon the "grace period" ended -- think I was off doing reserve stuff that weekend or simply forgot -- and that caused me to not be able to move into a fancy apartment complex once upon a time (though, mostly, they were using it as an excuse to discriminate against a "dirty truck driver" who didn't fit the kind of people they wanted in their yuppie complex, which they basically told me) but my current landlord could care less, as long as you pay your rent (not necessarily on time) and don't cause any problems you're golden.
  - niij 8y ago
    Why would an apartment owner want to rent to someone who had been evicted? I would assume that would be the #1 thing they look out for. Applicants who didn't hold up their end of a rental agreement is a strong indicator. If your employer paid you late because they were "bad at paying their bills" you'd be pretty upset, as would most people.