4 ms·

Only problem with Sweden is that eerie feeling of something being too perfect and those moments, where you scratch the surface and find there is something evil

Only problem with Sweden is that eerie feeling of something being too perfect and those moments, where you scratch the surface and find there is something evil hiding in there just below it. Sweden is a weird country. It is so controlled and everything is so straight, that it almost feels like there are no real humans. I couldn't imagine living there, if I was one of those people, who don't conform to the worldview as defined and constructed by the establishment.

kzrdude 8y ago
That's a fun story, but how is it a problem?
heydenberk 8y ago
I think your point is overstated, but nonetheless I found it deeply unsettling the nearly all Swedes watch (or attend) the sing-alongs in Skansen in Stockholm. Be-sweatered grandmas and punk kids with faces that are more piercing than skin, sitting together in chairs and on couches, smiling and singing happy songs.
- toxik 8y ago
  I have never attended Allsång på Skansen, not to my knowledge. Most Swedish people are creeped out by it too. It somehow feels so forced. It's almost like a cult.
isodude 8y ago
But the benefits are great! Seriously though, most swedes are very forgiving about others world views. As long as you sort your trash properly.
ckarmann 8y ago
I lived one year in Sweden (in Lund, near Malmö). Easily one of the two nicest places I ever lived in. People are warm and welcoming. And in my experience at least, you can delve into arguments about society and politics like anywhere else, or even better because it doesn't end up with people mad at each other for having a different worldview like in the USA or in France (again, my experience). I find strange this assumption I sometimes read here that having a sense of collective means losing your individuality.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
  I lived in Malmö for quite awhile and knew and worked in tech with many highly educated people, quite a few of them who graduated from Lund. I think that Lund and Malmö tech scene is a bit of a bubble. As I got to know some of the Swedes I worked with deeply, I started to hear complaints from many of them about the societal groupthink that exists in Sweden. There really is a strong sense of collectivism in Sweden, it just seems that the tech scene has been able to break away from it to a certain extent. That said, I enjoyed many of the same things that you mention about Sweden. The people I worked with were highly educated, pragmatic, and often not willing to make bad engineering decisions if there was no reason to. It was easy to have very in-depth conversations with Swedes about many topics without resulting to emotional attacks or divisiveness. In general I think what has helped Swedes the most (and what grandparent has hinted at) is that Swedish citizens, at least everyone I met, are very internationally minded in that they are absolutely voracious travelers and embrace people of other cultures rather easily (there are the Swedish Democrats, of course, but this mentality is still a relative minority in Sweden). This willingness to interact internationally and deal with other cultures is what I think has helped propel Sweden to the kind of startup success we are seeing here.
  - servs 8y ago
    People always tend to complain about things like groupthink. Doesn't mean it isn't real, just rarely a concrete problem. Sweden has a ton "first world problems" like status, fear of missing out, vanity etc. Still absolutely nothing compared to social pressure in most of the world. As you probably know things like engineering go back hundreds of years. Tons of successful Swedish inventors, artists, actors, athletes etc. The American Dream is alive in Sweden. The prime minister is a foster child and welder by trade. Daniel Ek and Markus Persson both grew up under less than ideal conditions and are now billionaires. And if one thinks Sweden is too small most people have the tools to move, like Fredrik Eklund. That said, it isn't like 10-15 years ago when it seemed like Sweden was spared from many of the worlds problems. Housing inequality, dysfunctional politics, call for easy jobs, lesser standards, less access to social safety net etc. All large but common problems that make "the deal" a lot less appealing. Tons of people moving to UK, Berlin or Norway for work or just trying to have a decent life. I do think it is a bit of a bubble. To many cocktail parties, consulting companies and incubators, not enough substance. It isn't really clear whether there will actually be a lot of new extraordinaire companies. I think most people are more concerned about their mortgage. Because if there is anything I would attribute to recent Sweden's success in technology it just that in end of '90s, early '00s Sweden was a really good deal. A decent apartment, good employment and good infrastructure was all available. A lot of people in technology didn't even bother with university. But nothing was "glamorous". So if you wanted to do something you had to do it yourself. Today everyone is looking for the guarantee. Going to school for 5-6 years, huge mortgage for the rest of their life and chasing money in consulting. I get it, just unlikely to produce anything different.
pengstrom 8y ago
Could you elaborate on how it's controlled?
toxik 8y ago
I think what you see is a culture wherein conforming to the majority idea is valued (a lot) higher than the individual's ability for self-expression. This does not mean people don't think differently, the Swedish are notoriously individualistic, but it does mean that your voice isn't heard as often, and when it is, it doesn't really seem like it's your voice, but rather it was agreed upon to be the way forward. The hyper-individualism, I think, is just the flip side of hyper-authoritarianism. Swedish people are almost happy to pay taxes, Swedish people are some of the most active voters in the OECD (82% turnout last election, let's hope tomorrow's election is no worse!), and Swedish road safety policy is now a Swedish export. It is indeed a very unusual combination, but I think it's what happens when you mix prosperity, democracy, and secularism for a long time. I hope that the recent waves of misinformation and polarizing media won't ruin it. But it isn't looking good.
- javiramos 8y ago
  The term for this is the Law of Jante [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
fsloth 8y ago
How familiar are you with other northern european states? (UK, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Finland)? There is a definite cultural gradient in Europe - and I'm wondering do you feel just estranged by nothern european values in general and not specifically sweden. As a finn I don't really feel there is especially anything weird in Sweden when visiting there (except they have more capital than finland so their nordic wellfare system is a bit more robust than ours - then king of the hill in nordic wellfarestateism being Norway with their oil).

kzrdude 8y ago

That's a fun story, but how is it a problem?

heydenberk 8y ago

I think your point is overstated, but nonetheless I found it deeply unsettling the nearly all Swedes watch (or attend) the sing-alongs in Skansen in Stockholm. Be-sweatered grandmas and punk kids with faces that are more piercing than skin, sitting together in chairs and on couches, smiling and singing happy songs.

toxik 8y ago
I have never attended Allsång på Skansen, not to my knowledge. Most Swedish people are creeped out by it too. It somehow feels so forced. It's almost like a cult.

isodude 8y ago

But the benefits are great! Seriously though, most swedes are very forgiving about others world views. As long as you sort your trash properly.

ckarmann 8y ago

I lived one year in Sweden (in Lund, near Malmö). Easily one of the two nicest places I ever lived in. People are warm and welcoming. And in my experience at least, you can delve into arguments about society and politics like anywhere else, or even better because it doesn't end up with people mad at each other for having a different worldview like in the USA or in France (again, my experience). I find strange this assumption I sometimes read here that having a sense of collective means losing your individuality.

SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
I lived in Malmö for quite awhile and knew and worked in tech with many highly educated people, quite a few of them who graduated from Lund. I think that Lund and Malmö tech scene is a bit of a bubble. As I got to know some of the Swedes I worked with deeply, I started to hear complaints from many of them about the societal groupthink that exists in Sweden. There really is a strong sense of collectivism in Sweden, it just seems that the tech scene has been able to break away from it to a certain extent. That said, I enjoyed many of the same things that you mention about Sweden. The people I worked with were highly educated, pragmatic, and often not willing to make bad engineering decisions if there was no reason to. It was easy to have very in-depth conversations with Swedes about many topics without resulting to emotional attacks or divisiveness. In general I think what has helped Swedes the most (and what grandparent has hinted at) is that Swedish citizens, at least everyone I met, are very internationally minded in that they are absolutely voracious travelers and embrace people of other cultures rather easily (there are the Swedish Democrats, of course, but this mentality is still a relative minority in Sweden). This willingness to interact internationally and deal with other cultures is what I think has helped propel Sweden to the kind of startup success we are seeing here.
- servs 8y ago
  People always tend to complain about things like groupthink. Doesn't mean it isn't real, just rarely a concrete problem. Sweden has a ton "first world problems" like status, fear of missing out, vanity etc. Still absolutely nothing compared to social pressure in most of the world. As you probably know things like engineering go back hundreds of years. Tons of successful Swedish inventors, artists, actors, athletes etc. The American Dream is alive in Sweden. The prime minister is a foster child and welder by trade. Daniel Ek and Markus Persson both grew up under less than ideal conditions and are now billionaires. And if one thinks Sweden is too small most people have the tools to move, like Fredrik Eklund. That said, it isn't like 10-15 years ago when it seemed like Sweden was spared from many of the worlds problems. Housing inequality, dysfunctional politics, call for easy jobs, lesser standards, less access to social safety net etc. All large but common problems that make "the deal" a lot less appealing. Tons of people moving to UK, Berlin or Norway for work or just trying to have a decent life. I do think it is a bit of a bubble. To many cocktail parties, consulting companies and incubators, not enough substance. It isn't really clear whether there will actually be a lot of new extraordinaire companies. I think most people are more concerned about their mortgage. Because if there is anything I would attribute to recent Sweden's success in technology it just that in end of '90s, early '00s Sweden was a really good deal. A decent apartment, good employment and good infrastructure was all available. A lot of people in technology didn't even bother with university. But nothing was "glamorous". So if you wanted to do something you had to do it yourself. Today everyone is looking for the guarantee. Going to school for 5-6 years, huge mortgage for the rest of their life and chasing money in consulting. I get it, just unlikely to produce anything different.

pengstrom 8y ago

Could you elaborate on how it's controlled?

toxik 8y ago

I think what you see is a culture wherein conforming to the majority idea is valued (a lot) higher than the individual's ability for self-expression. This does not mean people don't think differently, the Swedish are notoriously individualistic, but it does mean that your voice isn't heard as often, and when it is, it doesn't really seem like it's your voice, but rather it was agreed upon to be the way forward. The hyper-individualism, I think, is just the flip side of hyper-authoritarianism. Swedish people are almost happy to pay taxes, Swedish people are some of the most active voters in the OECD (82% turnout last election, let's hope tomorrow's election is no worse!), and Swedish road safety policy is now a Swedish export. It is indeed a very unusual combination, but I think it's what happens when you mix prosperity, democracy, and secularism for a long time. I hope that the recent waves of misinformation and polarizing media won't ruin it. But it isn't looking good.

javiramos 8y ago
The term for this is the Law of Jante [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

fsloth 8y ago

How familiar are you with other northern european states? (UK, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Finland)? There is a definite cultural gradient in Europe - and I'm wondering do you feel just estranged by nothern european values in general and not specifically sweden. As a finn I don't really feel there is especially anything weird in Sweden when visiting there (except they have more capital than finland so their nordic wellfare system is a bit more robust than ours - then king of the hill in nordic wellfarestateism being Norway with their oil).