4 ms·

Youth-apprenticeship program in Colorado mirrors a successful Swiss model

57 points by adamnemecek 8y ago

Bucephalus355 8y ago
I had a couple of plumbers come over a few days ago. I asked them, out of curiosity, how apprenticeships worked these days. Do you apply to some organization? Some school? They looked at me like the huge, suburban house-husband idiot I felt like at that moment. Apparently, apprentice electrician is a title that means as much “junior software engineer”. It’s just a word for entry level. Any company can “apprentice” you. All it means is that they are willing to train an entry level person. Personally, I think any company not dedicating at least 5%, preferably 10% of their hiring budget to finding and training entry level talent is something of a parasite on the economy. This would ideally be force implemented through moral shame or promoting it as some new “best practice”, just like Google’s old stupid hiring strategies were, rather than regulation.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  If nobody trained junior level people, it would become so hard to find new people that the risk of taking on a junior would become worth it. You could argue that that's the equilibrium that we have already reached.
- budadre75 8y ago
  "any company not dedicating at least 5%, preferably 10% of their hiring budget to finding and training entry level talent is something of a parasite on the economy" Most of startups?
- zhdc1 8y ago
  I think this is one of those things that varies a lot between states. Plumbing apprenticeships in PA, at least, are four-five year programs that require an entrance examination, high-school diploma or equivalent, and a mix of on-job and in classroom training before you're allowed to take the examination to become a journeyman (that is, legally operate without supervision). Source: I have an uncle who owns a plumbing company and a cousin who's going through an apprenticeship.
nickthemagicman 8y ago
Not knocking this but why does it always have to be youth apprenticeships? Why can't there be adult apprenticeships? Job Corps is the same way. Sort of age discrimination by default.
- slavik81 8y ago
  The 17-year-old in the story is legally barred from working quite a few jobs due to his age. That's one reason, at least, why there may be differences between a program for youths and a program for older people.
- hatmatrix 8y ago
  Not an invalid point but it seems that this doesn't preclude establishing separate programs targeting different demographics (adults and youths) that come with different levels of professional and life experience.
m_mueller 8y ago
In Switzerland this is an important part of our lifestyle. There is a whole branch of higher level education programs up to Bologna master level ready for those graduating from apprenticeship. There are also bridges across to academic path, so you can start working at 16 and yet still go on e.g. to ETH Zurich (a top 20 ranked university) at 20, although you‘re statistically less likely to succeed there. But for me as a dad it mainly means I don’t have to worry too much. I can send my kids to free public school (which is most desireable anyway) and if they don’t have good grades they can still succeed later in life. Almost noone gets left behind that goes through the Swiss system, they almost all earn median-or-above salaries at 25 (~72k).
- Dreami 8y ago
  As a Swiss citizen, I really, really like our model. The only problem I see, is that foreign people from all kind of countries don't know this system and think that their kids have to go to a "Gymnasium" to reach a university-level education later. That's probably something we should emphasize more!
  - zhdc1 8y ago
    The Swiss/German/Central European model is extremely confusing for expats, like myself, who grew up outside of the country. Here's a (simplified) diagram of how it works, for anyone who's interested: https://www.edudoc.ch/static/web/bildungssystem/grafik_bildung_e.pdf https://www.edudoc.ch/static/web/bildungssystem/grafik_bildu...
  - zorked 8y ago
    I'm a foreig parent in Switzerland and have been put through several hours of being told that Gymnasium is not the only way. I think foreign parents in particular are concerned that their kids are being trapped by a complicated system out of their future chance at a higher education.
    - m_mueller 8y ago
      That‘s the poinz though, there is no trap. You have bridges from vocational education to academic at multiple points - 3rd year gymnasium, vocational maturity, university entrance exam for both bachelor and master. Or you go through one of the very high quality vocational bachelor (and now also master) programs.

57 points by adamnemecek 8y ago

I had a couple of plumbers come over a few days ago. I asked them, out of curiosity, how apprenticeships worked these days. Do you apply to some organization? Some school? They looked at me like the huge, suburban house-husband idiot I felt like at that moment. Apparently, apprentice electrician is a title that means as much “junior software engineer”. It’s just a word for entry level. Any company can “apprentice” you. All it means is that they are willing to train an entry level person. Personally, I think any company not dedicating at least 5%, preferably 10% of their hiring budget to finding and training entry level talent is something of a parasite on the economy. This would ideally be force implemented through moral shame or promoting it as some new “best practice”, just like Google’s old stupid hiring strategies were, rather than regulation.

whatshisface 8y ago
If nobody trained junior level people, it would become so hard to find new people that the risk of taking on a junior would become worth it. You could argue that that's the equilibrium that we have already reached.
budadre75 8y ago
"any company not dedicating at least 5%, preferably 10% of their hiring budget to finding and training entry level talent is something of a parasite on the economy" Most of startups?
zhdc1 8y ago
I think this is one of those things that varies a lot between states. Plumbing apprenticeships in PA, at least, are four-five year programs that require an entrance examination, high-school diploma or equivalent, and a mix of on-job and in classroom training before you're allowed to take the examination to become a journeyman (that is, legally operate without supervision). Source: I have an uncle who owns a plumbing company and a cousin who's going through an apprenticeship.

nickthemagicman 8y ago

Not knocking this but why does it always have to be youth apprenticeships? Why can't there be adult apprenticeships? Job Corps is the same way. Sort of age discrimination by default.

slavik81 8y ago
The 17-year-old in the story is legally barred from working quite a few jobs due to his age. That's one reason, at least, why there may be differences between a program for youths and a program for older people.
hatmatrix 8y ago
Not an invalid point but it seems that this doesn't preclude establishing separate programs targeting different demographics (adults and youths) that come with different levels of professional and life experience.

m_mueller 8y ago

In Switzerland this is an important part of our lifestyle. There is a whole branch of higher level education programs up to Bologna master level ready for those graduating from apprenticeship. There are also bridges across to academic path, so you can start working at 16 and yet still go on e.g. to ETH Zurich (a top 20 ranked university) at 20, although you‘re statistically less likely to succeed there. But for me as a dad it mainly means I don’t have to worry too much. I can send my kids to free public school (which is most desireable anyway) and if they don’t have good grades they can still succeed later in life. Almost noone gets left behind that goes through the Swiss system, they almost all earn median-or-above salaries at 25 (~72k).

Dreami 8y ago
As a Swiss citizen, I really, really like our model. The only problem I see, is that foreign people from all kind of countries don't know this system and think that their kids have to go to a "Gymnasium" to reach a university-level education later. That's probably something we should emphasize more!
- zhdc1 8y ago
  The Swiss/German/Central European model is extremely confusing for expats, like myself, who grew up outside of the country. Here's a (simplified) diagram of how it works, for anyone who's interested: https://www.edudoc.ch/static/web/bildungssystem/grafik_bildung_e.pdf https://www.edudoc.ch/static/web/bildungssystem/grafik_bildu...
- zorked 8y ago
  I'm a foreig parent in Switzerland and have been put through several hours of being told that Gymnasium is not the only way. I think foreign parents in particular are concerned that their kids are being trapped by a complicated system out of their future chance at a higher education.
  - m_mueller 8y ago
    That‘s the poinz though, there is no trap. You have bridges from vocational education to academic at multiple points - 3rd year gymnasium, vocational maturity, university entrance exam for both bachelor and master. Or you go through one of the very high quality vocational bachelor (and now also master) programs.