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The implication is that the majority of homeless are just lazy, yea? Just pick apples! I've been exactly there. You're not making minimum wage when you show up

The implication is that the majority of homeless are just lazy, yea? Just pick apples! I've been exactly there. You're not making minimum wage when you show up to the farm to pick apricots all day. Bars - need a bartender license. Yes, you do, nobody is risking it in 2018. Restaurants, sure, but again, you're not making minimum wage, and if you whiff of hobo you're not working front of house and getting tips. Cleaning jobs are usually cornered by some immigrant class . If you're an immigrant and have friends/family with the hookup or maybe can speak their language, congrats, you're in (not making minimum wage). If not, move on. Roofing - you need to bring your own tools. Speaking from experience. Also, this isn't just a "show up and do it job," the shysters that manage to sell shit crews to homeowners never last long, so you'll have to get on with a crew that know what they're doing, and they're not going to want to bring someone on that wants to just do it long enough to "get their feet under them" and then bail. Decent pay, sure, but it's a "career." Painting - this means standing outside of home depot, just like OP said. Not minimum wage. Other forms of low skill construction - like what? It's not "low skill," the immigrants you see doing it get trained up by their cousins on the job, and once again, it's bring your own tools. Landscaping/yard work - market cornered by immigrants and highschoolers. Nobody wants a random hobo mowing their lawn. Maybe you can get on with an immigrant crew. Non-minimum wage. >unemployment rate so low Yea, because people are being paid like it's still 1991 (the 2009 raise was putting a finger into a ten meter diameter hole in a dam). This guy didn't have a family to support him. That's how the immigrants do it, in case anybody is wondering - they stay with families, get jobs due to families, and afford life here because they're all supporting eachother. Random hobo programmer dude is going to have a MUCH harder time scrabbling out of the hole. Yea, you can scrabble a life, but you're not building a ladder out of the hole for yourself. I'd argue, if you can program, the 3.75/hr you'd make for 3 months is meaningless if you can instead spend that 3 months homeless but then pull a programming job for even a month.

ryandrake 8y ago
Your post points to stronger minimum-wage enforcement being appropriate. It's ridiculous that there are so many legally grey (and legally OK) loopholes that employers use to get around minimum wage law, and that being economically disadvantaged means one is more likely to be exploited by these. What part of "minimum" is so difficult to understand and enforce?
- linkregister 8y ago
  Some types of farm work are paid by the amount of work performed, e.g. bushels of cherries. This method is permitted in federal labor law. It might also be possible that being a 1099 contractor also avoids minimum wage laws by having a contract based on the job's completion, not the time taken.
lozaning 8y ago
At least in CA there is literally no such thing as a 'bartending license'. The requirements for getting a job as a bartender in california start and stop at convincing a bar owner to let you tend their bar.
- baby 8y ago
  I was there for a bit and I got carded in almost every bar I went. They are very anal with it.
  - lozaning 8y ago
    Yea, you'll get asked for ID to prove you're of drinking age. That's totally different than some kind of state proctored or recognized bartending exam that a bartender must have passed in order to work at the bar.
- isaiahg 8y ago
  Even if there's no license, there no way someone can just walk into a bar and get a bartending job. I should know, I went to bartending school. Bartenders are almost always hired from lower level employees. Usually you start by cleaning tables, then you work your way up to a barback, and then you can move up as a bartender.
  - lozaning 8y ago
    Hence my caveat about needing to convince a bar owner to let you be a bartender. Never said it was easy, just that there is no such thing as a bartenders license.
code_duck 8y ago
I don’t think the intent was to say that it’s easy to get a job or that people without work are lazy - just that an address is not a strict requirement.
- justaaron 8y ago
  Nonsense. I was homeless exactly once for a few weeks in San Francisco. It took a loan from my sister (hey, lucky I had a sister with money to loan me!) to get one of those rooms in a shared building where you aren't allowed to have guests and the kitchen cupboards have padlocks on them. You NEED an address to get anything more than one-off day work that you can't count on to pay the next months rent with. It's not optional. I did the one-off "go to a construction site, ask if they need help, get 20 bucks for cleaning the work site" thing and that's fine for EATING but that's about it. You can't send resumes out or get back to recruiters during that time, etc. It's enough to keep eating, that's about it. At that time the rent was like $380 for the room (this was in the Multimedia Gulch days...) so that's like 11 bucks a day for rent, don't miss a day. So, in one day of programming, I would make rent for the month and then some, but I needed to have a place with a computer to program. So today, you have laptops, but you still need electricity and internet. You need a stable place where you can plug your stuff in, keep it safe, and work.
NicoJuicy 8y ago
Painting pays little? Good painters and a lot of other "low skill" kuch pay 35-40€ / hour, if you deliver a good job. I don't consider it a low skill though, it's being handy. Something I am not, so respect them. They build your home that you pay a loan for. While some of us get paid for apps that cost 1$ with a ad supported free version and that gives a 30% commission to the platform owners.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
stale2002 8y ago
The majority of homeless aren't lazy. Instead, a whole lot of them have severe mental issues, causing them to be incapable of holding a job. You also missed a large category of jobs, which is retail. And most people working retail are not immigrants. All you need to do is be reasonably presentable for these jobs.
randomdata 8y ago
> I've been exactly there. You're not making minimum wage when you show up to the farm to pick apricots all day. While not Iowa, the farms around here will easily pay you $20-30/hr. if you are willing to work on equipment. Which, anyone who is capable of software development, also has the mindset required to work on equipment. They're pretty similar activities when you get down to it. I'm not sure there is any reason why someone with such a skillset needs to go into picking apricots. We're not exactly talking about a 12 year old who has never worked before and who's greatest ability is being able to turn on his video game console.
- justaaron 8y ago
  Note that this website is "hacker news". His efforts are correctly directed and he will likely eventually get the development work he should get. Someone will see the potential, risk a minor investment, and employ him. Directing him to ag-work here is somewhat of a non-sequitur IMO
- zrobotics 8y ago
  Speaking as a former mechanic--no, you can't just walk up to a piece of machinery and fix it. That is a career, and takes quite a lot of time to learn. The mindset is similar, sure, but would you expect an average mechanic to be able to develop software as well?
  - randomdata 8y ago
    > no, you can't just walk up to a piece of machinery and fix it. But as a farmer, I have to walk up and fix equipment all the time. There are people who are better at it then me. I will definitely hire them when I am under a time crunch, but they also charge way more money than the figures I quoted earlier, so you cannot afford to take them on full-time (if they are willing to work on a farm full-time) and have them to perform other duties on the farm that do not have the same value proposition. > would you expect an average mechanic to be able to develop software as well? Yes, absolutely. I distinctly remember when I started developing software as a teenager and was able to start writing software after a day or two of honing my thought process, without the benefit of having a professional background like a mechanic has. It is a very accessible activity. I don't know if they could walk into a SV tech company offering $200k/year, just as a farmhand who works on machinery isn't likely to walk into higher paying heavy equipment mechanic position. There are going to be better developers out there, but like mechanical work, there is a gradient.
manigandham 8y ago
There is no implication as the post said nothing about the homeless. > That's how the immigrants do it Not really. Lots of generalizations there about immigrants. Some might have networks but many come here on their own with nothing and grind it out for decades to build up their lives. The key is persistence. Your post seems to be full of assumptions and complaints which makes it clear that you likely have never attempted to get such a job, because it's definitely not as impossible as you make it sound. Also, when you're homeless, anything is better than nothing.
- watwut 8y ago
  Speaking as someone who knows people who immigrated, the cooperation and help thing were huge factor - especially so among those who did low skill work. People moved in groups or seeked places where they knew somebody. It is hard life and they are not doing it completely alone without cooperation because that would make it even harder. (Offtopic: refusal to accept that people do help each other, give each other advice and that it is factor in life is distinctively American thing. Many cultures see mutual help like that as requirement or "normal". Not everyone see insult in word help, many see it as just what intelligent people do.) Especially the parts about someone teaching you trade and borrowing tools so you can show up like pretending to be pro instead of like someone who never done that trade. Or relative helping you get job and teaching you on the job. Smart person can learn basics fast, but can't figure them on his own and need someone to cover up basic mistakes at the beginning. And also ability to find a place to sleep in shared with other non complete strangers (e.g. People you know something about even if a bit) - not as comfortable nor with privacy but cheap and provides connections. The shared housing was common enough that Americans attempted to prevent it in places (via rules on multiple families in one house etc).
  - manigandham 8y ago
    Speaking as someone who is an immigrant, there are just as many families who are on their own. Culture aspect is real but it's highly localized, even to immigrants, meaning you don't get help from "your people" just because you share the same origin.

ryandrake 8y ago

Your post points to stronger minimum-wage enforcement being appropriate. It's ridiculous that there are so many legally grey (and legally OK) loopholes that employers use to get around minimum wage law, and that being economically disadvantaged means one is more likely to be exploited by these. What part of "minimum" is so difficult to understand and enforce?

linkregister 8y ago
Some types of farm work are paid by the amount of work performed, e.g. bushels of cherries. This method is permitted in federal labor law. It might also be possible that being a 1099 contractor also avoids minimum wage laws by having a contract based on the job's completion, not the time taken.

lozaning 8y ago

At least in CA there is literally no such thing as a 'bartending license'. The requirements for getting a job as a bartender in california start and stop at convincing a bar owner to let you tend their bar.

baby 8y ago
I was there for a bit and I got carded in almost every bar I went. They are very anal with it.
- lozaning 8y ago
  Yea, you'll get asked for ID to prove you're of drinking age. That's totally different than some kind of state proctored or recognized bartending exam that a bartender must have passed in order to work at the bar.
isaiahg 8y ago
Even if there's no license, there no way someone can just walk into a bar and get a bartending job. I should know, I went to bartending school. Bartenders are almost always hired from lower level employees. Usually you start by cleaning tables, then you work your way up to a barback, and then you can move up as a bartender.
- lozaning 8y ago
  Hence my caveat about needing to convince a bar owner to let you be a bartender. Never said it was easy, just that there is no such thing as a bartenders license.

code_duck 8y ago

I don’t think the intent was to say that it’s easy to get a job or that people without work are lazy - just that an address is not a strict requirement.

justaaron 8y ago
Nonsense. I was homeless exactly once for a few weeks in San Francisco. It took a loan from my sister (hey, lucky I had a sister with money to loan me!) to get one of those rooms in a shared building where you aren't allowed to have guests and the kitchen cupboards have padlocks on them. You NEED an address to get anything more than one-off day work that you can't count on to pay the next months rent with. It's not optional. I did the one-off "go to a construction site, ask if they need help, get 20 bucks for cleaning the work site" thing and that's fine for EATING but that's about it. You can't send resumes out or get back to recruiters during that time, etc. It's enough to keep eating, that's about it. At that time the rent was like $380 for the room (this was in the Multimedia Gulch days...) so that's like 11 bucks a day for rent, don't miss a day. So, in one day of programming, I would make rent for the month and then some, but I needed to have a place with a computer to program. So today, you have laptops, but you still need electricity and internet. You need a stable place where you can plug your stuff in, keep it safe, and work.

NicoJuicy 8y ago

Painting pays little? Good painters and a lot of other "low skill" kuch pay 35-40€ / hour, if you deliver a good job. I don't consider it a low skill though, it's being handy. Something I am not, so respect them. They build your home that you pay a loan for. While some of us get paid for apps that cost 1$ with a ad supported free version and that gives a 30% commission to the platform owners.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

stale2002 8y ago

The majority of homeless aren't lazy. Instead, a whole lot of them have severe mental issues, causing them to be incapable of holding a job. You also missed a large category of jobs, which is retail. And most people working retail are not immigrants. All you need to do is be reasonably presentable for these jobs.

randomdata 8y ago

> I've been exactly there. You're not making minimum wage when you show up to the farm to pick apricots all day. While not Iowa, the farms around here will easily pay you $20-30/hr. if you are willing to work on equipment. Which, anyone who is capable of software development, also has the mindset required to work on equipment. They're pretty similar activities when you get down to it. I'm not sure there is any reason why someone with such a skillset needs to go into picking apricots. We're not exactly talking about a 12 year old who has never worked before and who's greatest ability is being able to turn on his video game console.

justaaron 8y ago
Note that this website is "hacker news". His efforts are correctly directed and he will likely eventually get the development work he should get. Someone will see the potential, risk a minor investment, and employ him. Directing him to ag-work here is somewhat of a non-sequitur IMO
zrobotics 8y ago
Speaking as a former mechanic--no, you can't just walk up to a piece of machinery and fix it. That is a career, and takes quite a lot of time to learn. The mindset is similar, sure, but would you expect an average mechanic to be able to develop software as well?
- randomdata 8y ago
  > no, you can't just walk up to a piece of machinery and fix it. But as a farmer, I have to walk up and fix equipment all the time. There are people who are better at it then me. I will definitely hire them when I am under a time crunch, but they also charge way more money than the figures I quoted earlier, so you cannot afford to take them on full-time (if they are willing to work on a farm full-time) and have them to perform other duties on the farm that do not have the same value proposition. > would you expect an average mechanic to be able to develop software as well? Yes, absolutely. I distinctly remember when I started developing software as a teenager and was able to start writing software after a day or two of honing my thought process, without the benefit of having a professional background like a mechanic has. It is a very accessible activity. I don't know if they could walk into a SV tech company offering $200k/year, just as a farmhand who works on machinery isn't likely to walk into higher paying heavy equipment mechanic position. There are going to be better developers out there, but like mechanical work, there is a gradient.

manigandham 8y ago

There is no implication as the post said nothing about the homeless. > That's how the immigrants do it Not really. Lots of generalizations there about immigrants. Some might have networks but many come here on their own with nothing and grind it out for decades to build up their lives. The key is persistence. Your post seems to be full of assumptions and complaints which makes it clear that you likely have never attempted to get such a job, because it's definitely not as impossible as you make it sound. Also, when you're homeless, anything is better than nothing.

watwut 8y ago
Speaking as someone who knows people who immigrated, the cooperation and help thing were huge factor - especially so among those who did low skill work. People moved in groups or seeked places where they knew somebody. It is hard life and they are not doing it completely alone without cooperation because that would make it even harder. (Offtopic: refusal to accept that people do help each other, give each other advice and that it is factor in life is distinctively American thing. Many cultures see mutual help like that as requirement or "normal". Not everyone see insult in word help, many see it as just what intelligent people do.) Especially the parts about someone teaching you trade and borrowing tools so you can show up like pretending to be pro instead of like someone who never done that trade. Or relative helping you get job and teaching you on the job. Smart person can learn basics fast, but can't figure them on his own and need someone to cover up basic mistakes at the beginning. And also ability to find a place to sleep in shared with other non complete strangers (e.g. People you know something about even if a bit) - not as comfortable nor with privacy but cheap and provides connections. The shared housing was common enough that Americans attempted to prevent it in places (via rules on multiple families in one house etc).
- manigandham 8y ago
  Speaking as someone who is an immigrant, there are just as many families who are on their own. Culture aspect is real but it's highly localized, even to immigrants, meaning you don't get help from "your people" just because you share the same origin.