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Hah. There's definitely pain out there that can't be studied to oblivion. Anyone so pompous hasn't experienced, for example, a cluster headache.

projektir 8y ago
Yeah, I am reading all these posts saying "if you just focus on the pain, it'll stop being a problem", with most examples being "my leg is sore", and wonder how much time the people have actually spent trying to imagine high pain. Comes to mind: https://xkcd.com/883/ https://xkcd.com/883/ I wonder how much this is related to poor understanding of the badness of certain situations...
- danharaj 8y ago
  Granted I think mindful pain management is a thing, especially chronic pain which I've had forever. But I've certainly felt acute pain far beyond the ability of my higher faculties to contend with...
  - projektir 8y ago
    Yeah, I won't disagree that things can be managed given certain conditions. There are definitely better and worse ways of greeting pain for the average person. But I'd never say it as an absolute and I think that's incredibly dangerous and the "suffering is an optional thing we invent in our heads" all over this thread is making me cringe.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
ianai 8y ago
I think it helps to remember that they occur as cluster headaches. It’s one thing to have a terrible pain that ends within the day. It’s quite another to have the same exact pain with maximum intensity “pounce” on you every day for weeks, months, years.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tokyodude 8y ago
yea, I guess torture supposedly doesn't work if you just externalize it. certainly not my experience
- tokyodude 8y ago
  love it. i've actually been tortuted. so I've actually experienced the pain of torture. it's seriously real pain. but okay. downvotes . awesome
GW150914 8y ago
Hah. There's definitely pain out there that can't be studied to oblivion. Anyone so pompous hasn't experienced, for example, a cluster headache. Or passed a kidney stone, or had a thrombosed hemorrhoid, or been tortured. I think there’s a difference between breathing through lower back pain, and trying to contextualize someone threading a live wire up your urethra to make you talk. Even if you’re exceptionally good with pain, most people are going to have trouble with damage too. If you start cutting off someone’s fingers, they’re going to lose their zen in a hurry. But hey, maybe we’re wrong, but to people who think I’d say... go to a burn unit and see if you can make a difference where nothing short of a medically induced coma can. There’s a Nobel prize with your name on it if you succeed.
- kranner 8y ago
  There was the Vietnamese Buddhist monk who self-immolated in public. He appeared to remain calm throughout. Searching for "the burning monk 1963" will turn up images and videos, though I won't link to them here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...
  - andai 8y ago
    XKCD 846: "It's hard to imagine the pain of a deeply infected dental nerve. To get an idea, put your hands in a bowl full of ice cubes, and hold them there for 90 seconds." Here Randall is using this example as one of the worst pains in the world, while others submerge themselves in ice baths voluntarily for health and enjoyment (eg. Wim Hof the ice man) There is something about facing an unpleasant stimulus (to put it lightly) voluntarily that changes the neurology, and the subjective experience of it.
    - GW150914 8y ago
      There’s also something to be said about the brevity of pain, even if the end is death. As incredible as thst monk’s composure was, hismnerves would have been dead within a short time, and he would have followed in a minute or two. Still an amazing thing to maintain himself in the face of that, butmits different than the same or worse pain for hours, days, or weeks. Being burned hurts, but anyone who has been badly burned can tell you it hurts so much more after the acute injury. Sticking your hand in ice really does hurt, but you can stop it anytime you want, and while it hurts it’s in an extremity. As someone who’s done that, and had an infected dental nerve can attest, it hardly compares. This may sound off but the fact that the pain is in your head makes it somehow worse, more inescapable and debilitating. I never felt so much relief as I did when the endodontist gave me novicaine, and a large bolus in your palette isn’t pleasant either. Still it was like a cool breeze of relief next to that tooth. People are always scared of root canals, but the truth is that if you need one, it’s actually nothing at all next to the pain that brought you there.
Mikhail_Edoshin 8y ago
It's interesting that I'm reading a book written by a person who suffered from cluster headache. It's a book about mindfulness in which he suggests to treat your pain as a message and listen to that message, that is, study the pain. He no longer has this headache.
- danharaj 8y ago
  Cluster headaches are sporadic and their cause is unknown. A person can have one once and never again. Best not to read into anecdotes.
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    You claimed that no one who had experienced cluster headaches would advocate for mindfulness as a potential solution. Someone gave you information to the contrary, and now you are suggesting not using an anecdote as proof of a treatment’s efficacy. That’s called “moving the goalposts”.

projektir 8y ago

Yeah, I am reading all these posts saying "if you just focus on the pain, it'll stop being a problem", with most examples being "my leg is sore", and wonder how much time the people have actually spent trying to imagine high pain. Comes to mind: https://xkcd.com/883/ https://xkcd.com/883/ I wonder how much this is related to poor understanding of the badness of certain situations...

danharaj 8y ago
Granted I think mindful pain management is a thing, especially chronic pain which I've had forever. But I've certainly felt acute pain far beyond the ability of my higher faculties to contend with...
- projektir 8y ago
  Yeah, I won't disagree that things can be managed given certain conditions. There are definitely better and worse ways of greeting pain for the average person. But I'd never say it as an absolute and I think that's incredibly dangerous and the "suffering is an optional thing we invent in our heads" all over this thread is making me cringe.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

ianai 8y ago

I think it helps to remember that they occur as cluster headaches. It’s one thing to have a terrible pain that ends within the day. It’s quite another to have the same exact pain with maximum intensity “pounce” on you every day for weeks, months, years.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

tokyodude 8y ago

yea, I guess torture supposedly doesn't work if you just externalize it. certainly not my experience

tokyodude 8y ago
love it. i've actually been tortuted. so I've actually experienced the pain of torture. it's seriously real pain. but okay. downvotes . awesome

GW150914 8y ago

Hah. There's definitely pain out there that can't be studied to oblivion. Anyone so pompous hasn't experienced, for example, a cluster headache. Or passed a kidney stone, or had a thrombosed hemorrhoid, or been tortured. I think there’s a difference between breathing through lower back pain, and trying to contextualize someone threading a live wire up your urethra to make you talk. Even if you’re exceptionally good with pain, most people are going to have trouble with damage too. If you start cutting off someone’s fingers, they’re going to lose their zen in a hurry. But hey, maybe we’re wrong, but to people who think I’d say... go to a burn unit and see if you can make a difference where nothing short of a medically induced coma can. There’s a Nobel prize with your name on it if you succeed.

kranner 8y ago
There was the Vietnamese Buddhist monk who self-immolated in public. He appeared to remain calm throughout. Searching for "the burning monk 1963" will turn up images and videos, though I won't link to them here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...
- andai 8y ago
  XKCD 846: "It's hard to imagine the pain of a deeply infected dental nerve. To get an idea, put your hands in a bowl full of ice cubes, and hold them there for 90 seconds." Here Randall is using this example as one of the worst pains in the world, while others submerge themselves in ice baths voluntarily for health and enjoyment (eg. Wim Hof the ice man) There is something about facing an unpleasant stimulus (to put it lightly) voluntarily that changes the neurology, and the subjective experience of it.
  - GW150914 8y ago
    There’s also something to be said about the brevity of pain, even if the end is death. As incredible as thst monk’s composure was, hismnerves would have been dead within a short time, and he would have followed in a minute or two. Still an amazing thing to maintain himself in the face of that, butmits different than the same or worse pain for hours, days, or weeks. Being burned hurts, but anyone who has been badly burned can tell you it hurts so much more after the acute injury. Sticking your hand in ice really does hurt, but you can stop it anytime you want, and while it hurts it’s in an extremity. As someone who’s done that, and had an infected dental nerve can attest, it hardly compares. This may sound off but the fact that the pain is in your head makes it somehow worse, more inescapable and debilitating. I never felt so much relief as I did when the endodontist gave me novicaine, and a large bolus in your palette isn’t pleasant either. Still it was like a cool breeze of relief next to that tooth. People are always scared of root canals, but the truth is that if you need one, it’s actually nothing at all next to the pain that brought you there.

Mikhail_Edoshin 8y ago

It's interesting that I'm reading a book written by a person who suffered from cluster headache. It's a book about mindfulness in which he suggests to treat your pain as a message and listen to that message, that is, study the pain. He no longer has this headache.

danharaj 8y ago
Cluster headaches are sporadic and their cause is unknown. A person can have one once and never again. Best not to read into anecdotes.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  You claimed that no one who had experienced cluster headaches would advocate for mindfulness as a potential solution. Someone gave you information to the contrary, and now you are suggesting not using an anecdote as proof of a treatment’s efficacy. That’s called “moving the goalposts”.