8 ms·

I was 'homeless' for a few months (in the sense that I didn't have a home) but for most of that time I had a high enough income that I could afford to stay in A

I was 'homeless' for a few months (in the sense that I didn't have a home) but for most of that time I had a high enough income that I could afford to stay in AirBnBs. It was a scary experience. At one point I had lost my job, I was about $6000 in debt, in a foreign country, with a 'dependent' spouse (also without job) and I only had about $1000 left on my credit card. When I hear entrepreneurs talk about how much they risked to build their startup, I roll my eyes. Once you've had to to do whatever it takes just to be able to afford to keep a roof over your head, what a lot of people call 'risk' actually doesn't seem risky at all. Would they have ended up sleeping on the streets if it didn't work out? It doesn't seem like it. I understand now that difficulty and hardship are highly subjective. Probably some people would look at my experience and think that I had it easy.

agumonkey 8y ago
do you live in a cold climate ? I wonder if it would be just ok in a warm place with near zero crime rate.
- sulam 8y ago
  There is no such thing as a near zero crime rate for homeless people. Also, just being warm is not sufficient. Homeless people need so much more than that, it's daunting. A short starter list: * food & water * access to shower * laundry * medical care * dental care * education * legal advice / support * the list goes on... (disclosure: 16 years of on-again, off-again homelessness as a child and a 6 month period of true homelessness as a young adult -- AirBnbs do not count.)
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    One week I measured how much water I needed to clean myself top to bottom: two glasses. I eat low and don't feel hungry (although I don't suffer cold which drains energy fast) I agree that it can be daunting but I think it's not the quantity it's the regularity of supplies.
    - varjag 8y ago
      Two glasses of water is perhaps barely enough to wash my (fairly unimpressive) hair with shampoo, and the hand better be steady. Is there some special technique?
      - agumonkey 8y ago
        True I forgot hairs, maybe I had very short ones at the time. So my comment was for everything else, when I meant top to bottom, I meant scrubbing and washing everything damn clean, not just a quick job. A bit related too, if you're homeless, cut your hairs. You won't look homeless and you'll need less water :)
      - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
        Possibly spongebaths and a buzzcut could make that work. But it's quite a goal to work towards. Taking a shower with a closed drain (if you have tub/shower) suggests I'd need a lot more.
        newnewpdro 8y ago
        Showering is an incredibly wasteful form of bathing, most of the water just goes down the drain doing absolutely nothing.
        agumonkey 8y ago
        This is why I used a Glass
      - jotm 8y ago
        Sponges and low standards or 1 gallon glasses
    - newnewpdro 8y ago
      > One week I measured how much water I needed to clean myself top to bottom: two glasses. This measurement is meaningless without calibrating for how dirty you were to start with. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you were mostly clean and presentable, wearing freshly cleaned clothes daily, only needing to wash off some sweat and skin oils. A person living rough on the streets will probably be wearing dirty clothes for days or weeks, and constantly be exposed to the elements. The grime accumulates, and unless you've reproduced these conditions in your experiment, your figures are unrealistic.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    There is no such thing as a near zero crime rate for homeless people. Some things that increase safety on the street: Don't take any disrespect off of anyone. Push back or walk away at the first insult. Otherwise, it escalates. Try to stay clean and look middle class. Short hair and cleanliness can get you mistaken for a tourist. It helps. Camping in a wooded area is a good thing. Don't sleep too close to housing. They will call the cops. Try to not be a trouble-maker yourself. The cops are much less likely to hassle you if you are merely dirt poor and sleeping outside somewhere.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      I'll monitor some neighborhood, I really think there are spots with very few people there at night yet with a bit of space and benches to lay at night. Also I'm not in the US, the social climate there might be very different from Europe (more weapons and very sensitive to private property).
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
      > Don't take any disrespect off of anyone. Push back or walk away at the first insult. Otherwise, it escalates. Pushing back is a fast way to get arrested. No one questions a cop tackling a "crazy homeless guy" who was having an altercation with a fine, upstanding citizen.
      - ddingus 8y ago
        That is the walk away part. Obviously, judgement is needed with police, but the general idea is to deescalate and not validate or encourage interaction. If there is no reward, some work, you can be on your way. An important concept here is your agency in interactions, dialog. You do have control of your end of it, and that is a significant contributor to how it all goes. Put simply, there are a lot of options besides righteous indignation. Use them. Doing that is not taking shit, more like managing it down and away. Where power differentials are in play, this all matters. Peers, in that sense, allow for more. These can be life saving when we are vulnerable and lacking resources, friends. Been there in my past. One time, it involved a gun, pointed right at me, loaded. At that time, my agency, it's implications were never more clear. The way I see it, being here to talk about it is a nice problem to have. Priorities. Sometimes they end up being really basic. In my experience, that basic nature, personal agency --what is proper, what may be needed, what that all means, even just seeing the options possible, like all of them, or more than expected, is hard for people who have not had these kinds of experiences.
- SwellJoe 8y ago
  "zero crime rate" often means "police harass the shit out of homeless folks because their mere presence makes the middle class people uncomfortable". Police regularly steal and destroy homeless folks' belongings in most major cities. Every time a "tent city" is broken up, it means that everything someone owns that they can't carry on their person is being sent to the dump. Any time a homeless person is arrested, even for small infractions or for warrant violations because they couldn't afford to pay a ticket (I know several homeless folks who've gone to jail because they were ticketed for sleeping on public property and then couldn't pay the ~$300 fine), they probably have to start over when they get out...anything of value they had will be gone. Homelessness could be much less destructive than it is, but people don't want it to be. They want "tough on crime", they want police to "clean up the streets", etc. Most cities, and their police, are actively out to get you on a daily basis if you're homeless. It just adds to the pile of uncertainty and stress that the very poor endure, and it's part of the cycle that keeps people homeless.
  - rectang 8y ago
    The savage moral superiority complex that so much of the U.S. population has for the homeless is appalling. The Just World Fallacy is a hell of a drug!
hnal943 8y ago
Do you mind sharing more about your circumstances? I'd like to understand how someone with a high income could become homeless.
- jedberg 8y ago
  Screwing up in the past and having bad credit would make it nearly impossible to rent a home. You generally need good credit and deposit money. With a high income you could have the deposit but it won't fix your credit. If you have a high income at least you can get into AirBnBs or hotels, because they don't do credit checks.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    Many hotels (the ones I would want to stay in) require a credit card with your name on it, which is a credit check. Many accept debit cards too with your name on it, but I assume opening a bank account also involved a credit check.
    - jedberg 8y ago
      If you have a high income it's pretty easy to get a secured credit card or a debit card though.
  - TylerE 8y ago
    If you truely have the income paying for several months rent up front will open doors.
- jondubois 8y ago
  I left Australia with the aim of relocating to Europe permanently and I traveled around Europe for a couple of months while staying at AirBnBs and working freelance for a US company (remotely); then for about 6 months I lived in Moscow (Russia) but the work started drying up (and I didn't have much savings left at that point). I was running out of money and couldn't find a job as a developer in Moscow due to language barriers (also, developers don't get paid very well over there) - I tried to apply for jobs in London from Moscow but recruiters were ignoring my resume (probably because I was in Russia and didn't have a UK phone number). So I decided to fly to London and rent various AirBnBs (changing every week or so) while desperately applying for jobs and attending interviews. Thankfully my risky strategy worked out in the end and I managed to get a decent job and found an apartment in London.
fipple 8y ago
No house and staying in Airbnb’s isn’t “homeless.”
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  It's not secure housing, either.
  - ddingus 8y ago
    Indeed, but the resource issues are very different. Very basics are still in play, and secure for periods of time. Plans can be made, changed. And the set of options is broader. Homelessness, coupled with, or rooted in poverty is a much more difficult thing than hopping from hotel to airbnb, etc... is. Not that I want to marginalize or judge this excellent thread, or anyone sharing. Not my intent. Just some clarity to improve relevancy.
- patientplatypus 8y ago
  You are objectively wrong. A homeless individual is defined in section 330(h)(5)(A) as “an individual who lacks housing (without regard to whether the individual is a member of a family), including an individual whose primary residence during the night is a supervised public or private facility (e.g., shelters) that provides temporary living accommodations, and an individual who is a resident in transitional housing.” A homeless person is an individual without permanent housing who may live on the streets; stay in a shelter, mission, single room occupancy facilities, abandoned building or vehicle; or in any other unstable or non-permanent situation. [Section 330 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C., 254b)] And even if you weren't you should show more kindness to those that experience hardship - because that's what good people do.
  - homeaway2 8y ago
    In the US, different government departments define homelessness different ways [1]. How and why they came to do that would be a very interesting read. I had looked into this to see what it would take to legally check the "I'm homeless" box on the ACA exemption form, which I believe was under the HHS rule you posted. But that's different from what it would take to get housing assistance from HUD, and that's probably even different than how the average person would define "homeless". [1] https://www.nhchc.org/faq/official-definition-homelessness/ https://www.nhchc.org/faq/official-definition-homelessness/
geggam 8y ago
Been down to less than 200 dollars left spanning several credit cards with wife and kids. Never will I dig that hole again. When I am out of money I am done. Come take what you want. Don't spend what you don't have. Ever.
- randomdata 8y ago
  > When I am out of money I am done. Come take what you want. If there is something of yours that I want, it has monetary value, and thus you are not actually out of money until everything that we could possibly want is gone. Just sayin'.
tluyben2 8y ago
It is very hard to compare 'risky' (you said that already); I know a fair bit of people who risked their health because of their startup; strokes & heartattacks because of not sleeping and continues, years long high levels of stress. When I see people in a wheelchair at 26, sleeping on the street doesn't sound too bad. Also I am curious; I read often about the US (I presume you are from there, apologies if not) that people say what you say 'have to live on the streets if it didn't work out'; don't you have friends and family? Friends and/or family would take us in or provide a house until we get out of the hole; don't you have people like that? I read a lot in the news (but news is not very accurate these days) that for instance 60% of Americans couldn't get $1000 in an emergency; I wonder if this is some group where everyone is completely broke or if it's just sensational press.
- linkregister 8y ago
  The author mentions that his grandmother refused to let him live at her house after a falling out. He alluded to his parents being unable to house him. Basically, yes, I'd imagine that most homeless people in the United States don't have reliable family members to live with.

agumonkey 8y ago

do you live in a cold climate ? I wonder if it would be just ok in a warm place with near zero crime rate.

sulam 8y ago
There is no such thing as a near zero crime rate for homeless people. Also, just being warm is not sufficient. Homeless people need so much more than that, it's daunting. A short starter list: * food & water * access to shower * laundry * medical care * dental care * education * legal advice / support * the list goes on... (disclosure: 16 years of on-again, off-again homelessness as a child and a 6 month period of true homelessness as a young adult -- AirBnbs do not count.)
- agumonkey 8y ago
  One week I measured how much water I needed to clean myself top to bottom: two glasses. I eat low and don't feel hungry (although I don't suffer cold which drains energy fast) I agree that it can be daunting but I think it's not the quantity it's the regularity of supplies.
  - varjag 8y ago
    Two glasses of water is perhaps barely enough to wash my (fairly unimpressive) hair with shampoo, and the hand better be steady. Is there some special technique?
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      True I forgot hairs, maybe I had very short ones at the time. So my comment was for everything else, when I meant top to bottom, I meant scrubbing and washing everything damn clean, not just a quick job. A bit related too, if you're homeless, cut your hairs. You won't look homeless and you'll need less water :)
    - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
      Possibly spongebaths and a buzzcut could make that work. But it's quite a goal to work towards. Taking a shower with a closed drain (if you have tub/shower) suggests I'd need a lot more.
      - newnewpdro 8y ago
        Showering is an incredibly wasteful form of bathing, most of the water just goes down the drain doing absolutely nothing.
        agumonkey 8y ago
        This is why I used a Glass
    - jotm 8y ago
      Sponges and low standards or 1 gallon glasses
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    > One week I measured how much water I needed to clean myself top to bottom: two glasses. This measurement is meaningless without calibrating for how dirty you were to start with. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you were mostly clean and presentable, wearing freshly cleaned clothes daily, only needing to wash off some sweat and skin oils. A person living rough on the streets will probably be wearing dirty clothes for days or weeks, and constantly be exposed to the elements. The grime accumulates, and unless you've reproduced these conditions in your experiment, your figures are unrealistic.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  There is no such thing as a near zero crime rate for homeless people. Some things that increase safety on the street: Don't take any disrespect off of anyone. Push back or walk away at the first insult. Otherwise, it escalates. Try to stay clean and look middle class. Short hair and cleanliness can get you mistaken for a tourist. It helps. Camping in a wooded area is a good thing. Don't sleep too close to housing. They will call the cops. Try to not be a trouble-maker yourself. The cops are much less likely to hassle you if you are merely dirt poor and sleeping outside somewhere.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    I'll monitor some neighborhood, I really think there are spots with very few people there at night yet with a bit of space and benches to lay at night. Also I'm not in the US, the social climate there might be very different from Europe (more weapons and very sensitive to private property).
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
    > Don't take any disrespect off of anyone. Push back or walk away at the first insult. Otherwise, it escalates. Pushing back is a fast way to get arrested. No one questions a cop tackling a "crazy homeless guy" who was having an altercation with a fine, upstanding citizen.
    - ddingus 8y ago
      That is the walk away part. Obviously, judgement is needed with police, but the general idea is to deescalate and not validate or encourage interaction. If there is no reward, some work, you can be on your way. An important concept here is your agency in interactions, dialog. You do have control of your end of it, and that is a significant contributor to how it all goes. Put simply, there are a lot of options besides righteous indignation. Use them. Doing that is not taking shit, more like managing it down and away. Where power differentials are in play, this all matters. Peers, in that sense, allow for more. These can be life saving when we are vulnerable and lacking resources, friends. Been there in my past. One time, it involved a gun, pointed right at me, loaded. At that time, my agency, it's implications were never more clear. The way I see it, being here to talk about it is a nice problem to have. Priorities. Sometimes they end up being really basic. In my experience, that basic nature, personal agency --what is proper, what may be needed, what that all means, even just seeing the options possible, like all of them, or more than expected, is hard for people who have not had these kinds of experiences.
SwellJoe 8y ago
"zero crime rate" often means "police harass the shit out of homeless folks because their mere presence makes the middle class people uncomfortable". Police regularly steal and destroy homeless folks' belongings in most major cities. Every time a "tent city" is broken up, it means that everything someone owns that they can't carry on their person is being sent to the dump. Any time a homeless person is arrested, even for small infractions or for warrant violations because they couldn't afford to pay a ticket (I know several homeless folks who've gone to jail because they were ticketed for sleeping on public property and then couldn't pay the ~$300 fine), they probably have to start over when they get out...anything of value they had will be gone. Homelessness could be much less destructive than it is, but people don't want it to be. They want "tough on crime", they want police to "clean up the streets", etc. Most cities, and their police, are actively out to get you on a daily basis if you're homeless. It just adds to the pile of uncertainty and stress that the very poor endure, and it's part of the cycle that keeps people homeless.
- rectang 8y ago
  The savage moral superiority complex that so much of the U.S. population has for the homeless is appalling. The Just World Fallacy is a hell of a drug!

hnal943 8y ago

Do you mind sharing more about your circumstances? I'd like to understand how someone with a high income could become homeless.

jedberg 8y ago
Screwing up in the past and having bad credit would make it nearly impossible to rent a home. You generally need good credit and deposit money. With a high income you could have the deposit but it won't fix your credit. If you have a high income at least you can get into AirBnBs or hotels, because they don't do credit checks.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Many hotels (the ones I would want to stay in) require a credit card with your name on it, which is a credit check. Many accept debit cards too with your name on it, but I assume opening a bank account also involved a credit check.
  - jedberg 8y ago
    If you have a high income it's pretty easy to get a secured credit card or a debit card though.
- TylerE 8y ago
  If you truely have the income paying for several months rent up front will open doors.
jondubois 8y ago
I left Australia with the aim of relocating to Europe permanently and I traveled around Europe for a couple of months while staying at AirBnBs and working freelance for a US company (remotely); then for about 6 months I lived in Moscow (Russia) but the work started drying up (and I didn't have much savings left at that point). I was running out of money and couldn't find a job as a developer in Moscow due to language barriers (also, developers don't get paid very well over there) - I tried to apply for jobs in London from Moscow but recruiters were ignoring my resume (probably because I was in Russia and didn't have a UK phone number). So I decided to fly to London and rent various AirBnBs (changing every week or so) while desperately applying for jobs and attending interviews. Thankfully my risky strategy worked out in the end and I managed to get a decent job and found an apartment in London.

fipple 8y ago

No house and staying in Airbnb’s isn’t “homeless.”

s73v3r_ 8y ago
It's not secure housing, either.
- ddingus 8y ago
  Indeed, but the resource issues are very different. Very basics are still in play, and secure for periods of time. Plans can be made, changed. And the set of options is broader. Homelessness, coupled with, or rooted in poverty is a much more difficult thing than hopping from hotel to airbnb, etc... is. Not that I want to marginalize or judge this excellent thread, or anyone sharing. Not my intent. Just some clarity to improve relevancy.
patientplatypus 8y ago
You are objectively wrong. A homeless individual is defined in section 330(h)(5)(A) as “an individual who lacks housing (without regard to whether the individual is a member of a family), including an individual whose primary residence during the night is a supervised public or private facility (e.g., shelters) that provides temporary living accommodations, and an individual who is a resident in transitional housing.” A homeless person is an individual without permanent housing who may live on the streets; stay in a shelter, mission, single room occupancy facilities, abandoned building or vehicle; or in any other unstable or non-permanent situation. [Section 330 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C., 254b)] And even if you weren't you should show more kindness to those that experience hardship - because that's what good people do.
- homeaway2 8y ago
  In the US, different government departments define homelessness different ways [1]. How and why they came to do that would be a very interesting read. I had looked into this to see what it would take to legally check the "I'm homeless" box on the ACA exemption form, which I believe was under the HHS rule you posted. But that's different from what it would take to get housing assistance from HUD, and that's probably even different than how the average person would define "homeless". [1] https://www.nhchc.org/faq/official-definition-homelessness/ https://www.nhchc.org/faq/official-definition-homelessness/

geggam 8y ago

Been down to less than 200 dollars left spanning several credit cards with wife and kids. Never will I dig that hole again. When I am out of money I am done. Come take what you want. Don't spend what you don't have. Ever.

randomdata 8y ago
> When I am out of money I am done. Come take what you want. If there is something of yours that I want, it has monetary value, and thus you are not actually out of money until everything that we could possibly want is gone. Just sayin'.

tluyben2 8y ago

It is very hard to compare 'risky' (you said that already); I know a fair bit of people who risked their health because of their startup; strokes & heartattacks because of not sleeping and continues, years long high levels of stress. When I see people in a wheelchair at 26, sleeping on the street doesn't sound too bad. Also I am curious; I read often about the US (I presume you are from there, apologies if not) that people say what you say 'have to live on the streets if it didn't work out'; don't you have friends and family? Friends and/or family would take us in or provide a house until we get out of the hole; don't you have people like that? I read a lot in the news (but news is not very accurate these days) that for instance 60% of Americans couldn't get $1000 in an emergency; I wonder if this is some group where everyone is completely broke or if it's just sensational press.

linkregister 8y ago
The author mentions that his grandmother refused to let him live at her house after a falling out. He alluded to his parents being unable to house him. Basically, yes, I'd imagine that most homeless people in the United States don't have reliable family members to live with.