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Is that true if your being tortured by someone other than yourself? I've seen the picture of the monk who set himself on fire while meditating in protest. I wo

Is that true if your being tortured by someone other than yourself? I've seen the picture of the monk who set himself on fire while meditating in protest. I wonder if suffering is only optional if you inflict it on yourself.

cammil 8y ago
According to many accounts, suffering is indeed optional, and with some training within your power to control.
philwelch 8y ago
People do tend to have an easier time enduring things they inflict on themselves than things inflicted on them by others, but perhaps you can trick this mechanism by accepting what is inflicted onto you by others.
- lez 8y ago
  Pain is feeding from fear, which can explain these: * you feel less pain if you cause it for yourself (you've already conquered fear) * mindfulness eases pain because of more knowledge / seeing, less fear
mcculley 8y ago
I can only speak to my experience. Mindfulness meditation gave me more capability to decouple pain from suffering, regardless of how the pain is inflicted. Your mileage may vary.
projektir 8y ago
At the very least, you could damage someone's brain faculties to the point that they can no longer philosophize their way out of suffering. And that is likely unnecessary, some drugs should suffice. "Suffering is optional" is a concept that dies immediately if you apply even a tiny amount of creativity to the question. It also fails if applied to animals. It's really only available to people in a specific range of situations, and often it's stated not because it's actually true, but because it makes people feel powerful in situations where they're rather powerless. Which is mostly the point of stoicism anyway, as it is a philosophy developed during a time when people felt that they couldn't change anything about the world. Of course, this means it's a poor philosophy to follow if your interest is in things improving, and not in just you personally not caring about them, something that many people already accomplish all too well...
- canhascodez 8y ago
  There are quite a lot of things which people transmit as true beliefs, which we all know are false. We tell people that not only love exists, but true love, and justice, and objective truth, and honor. No one has ever touched or measured an atom of love -- but we all need to feel loved, and acting like love or truth or honor don't exist leads to atrocities. Funny old world, ain't it?
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    What’s your proof that love, honor, and truth don’t exist?
    - canhascodez 8y ago
      That would be the definition of an abstract concept, I believe.
      - erikpukinskis 8y ago
        What’s an example of something that’s not an abstract concept?
        canhascodez 8y ago
        Well, if this is Philosophy 201, then clearly everything is abstract, and something something Plato's cave. However, the default position is that (surprise!) objective reality exists. Things that are observable and measurable are not abstract. Those things around you that you can perceive with your senses are not abstract. For a more in-depth perspective, you could take a look at the Wikipedia pages for: empiricism, epistemology, philosophy of science. Also, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy should have a reasonably topical article about Rationalism vs. Empiricism.
  - antidesitter 8y ago
    > which we all know are false I think you’re projecting your own beliefs onto others.
l_t 8y ago
For an interesting perspective on this topic, I'd recommend "Man's Search for Meaning", by Victor Frankl. Frankl was a Jewish psychiatrist who survived Auschwitz, and one of his points (as I understand it) is that humans deeply desire to know that their life is meaningful, and even if another person is torturing you, you can find meaning by maintaining your human dignity in the face of the evil around you. The stories in the book are heartbreaking, but there is a clear sense that it's possible to find something even when it seems like there's nothing. I guess he would say: perhaps you can't always find peace, but you can find meaning.
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  It’s easy to make this argument: Jewish people were in a place where their experience was entirely existential, thus anything is survivable simply because the other option is death (and so it was for their children and their friends). It’s an absolutely different story when you are being wrongfully interrogated in the USSR and thus giving up simply implies a life in prison. And the other option is another day of torture. Suffering is relative.

cammil 8y ago

According to many accounts, suffering is indeed optional, and with some training within your power to control.

philwelch 8y ago

People do tend to have an easier time enduring things they inflict on themselves than things inflicted on them by others, but perhaps you can trick this mechanism by accepting what is inflicted onto you by others.

lez 8y ago
Pain is feeding from fear, which can explain these: * you feel less pain if you cause it for yourself (you've already conquered fear) * mindfulness eases pain because of more knowledge / seeing, less fear

mcculley 8y ago

I can only speak to my experience. Mindfulness meditation gave me more capability to decouple pain from suffering, regardless of how the pain is inflicted. Your mileage may vary.

projektir 8y ago

At the very least, you could damage someone's brain faculties to the point that they can no longer philosophize their way out of suffering. And that is likely unnecessary, some drugs should suffice. "Suffering is optional" is a concept that dies immediately if you apply even a tiny amount of creativity to the question. It also fails if applied to animals. It's really only available to people in a specific range of situations, and often it's stated not because it's actually true, but because it makes people feel powerful in situations where they're rather powerless. Which is mostly the point of stoicism anyway, as it is a philosophy developed during a time when people felt that they couldn't change anything about the world. Of course, this means it's a poor philosophy to follow if your interest is in things improving, and not in just you personally not caring about them, something that many people already accomplish all too well...

canhascodez 8y ago
There are quite a lot of things which people transmit as true beliefs, which we all know are false. We tell people that not only love exists, but true love, and justice, and objective truth, and honor. No one has ever touched or measured an atom of love -- but we all need to feel loved, and acting like love or truth or honor don't exist leads to atrocities. Funny old world, ain't it?
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  What’s your proof that love, honor, and truth don’t exist?
  - canhascodez 8y ago
    That would be the definition of an abstract concept, I believe.
    - erikpukinskis 8y ago
      What’s an example of something that’s not an abstract concept?
      - canhascodez 8y ago
        Well, if this is Philosophy 201, then clearly everything is abstract, and something something Plato's cave. However, the default position is that (surprise!) objective reality exists. Things that are observable and measurable are not abstract. Those things around you that you can perceive with your senses are not abstract. For a more in-depth perspective, you could take a look at the Wikipedia pages for: empiricism, epistemology, philosophy of science. Also, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy should have a reasonably topical article about Rationalism vs. Empiricism.
- antidesitter 8y ago
  > which we all know are false I think you’re projecting your own beliefs onto others.

l_t 8y ago

For an interesting perspective on this topic, I'd recommend "Man's Search for Meaning", by Victor Frankl. Frankl was a Jewish psychiatrist who survived Auschwitz, and one of his points (as I understand it) is that humans deeply desire to know that their life is meaningful, and even if another person is torturing you, you can find meaning by maintaining your human dignity in the face of the evil around you. The stories in the book are heartbreaking, but there is a clear sense that it's possible to find something even when it seems like there's nothing. I guess he would say: perhaps you can't always find peace, but you can find meaning.

heavenlyblue 8y ago
It’s easy to make this argument: Jewish people were in a place where their experience was entirely existential, thus anything is survivable simply because the other option is death (and so it was for their children and their friends). It’s an absolutely different story when you are being wrongfully interrogated in the USSR and thus giving up simply implies a life in prison. And the other option is another day of torture. Suffering is relative.