5 ms·

Well, okay, but "make the entire world stop making plastic" is not something that an individual can actually do, while "build a big ocean plastic harvester" evi

by emtel 8y ago

Well, okay, but "make the entire world stop making plastic" is not something that an individual can actually do, while "build a big ocean plastic harvester" evidently is.

skookumchuck 8y ago
Putting a tax on plastic would be a great start.
- cududa 8y ago
  To reiterate the above post, that's not something an individual can do. Building an ocean skimmer is
  - mreome 8y ago
    So... an individual is apparently capable of constructing thousands of miles worth of marine-environment infrastructure in international waters crisscrossed by global shipping routes, managing the continuing maintenance of such infrastructure, and the logistics of collecting transportation and disposable of thousands of tons of waste... but is unable to effect political change of any kind?
    - cududa 8y ago
      That's absolutely something an individual can pull off. Changing international environmental policy seems way more difficult.
      - mreome 8y ago
        The point I was trying to make is that it isn't something that can be done as an individual, even if it works, at scale it will cost billions of dollars annually to operate, and will require the full time work of thousands of people. So pointing out that an individual can't change internally policy is a false comparison.
        cududa 8y ago
        $28 million to launch the first version. Raising that much money and recruiting a team is easier than influencing election outcomes in numerous (probably 100+) elections.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  After swimming (or attempting to swim, in those cases like Bacolod Philippines where the ocean was completely choked with floating trash) in the waters off various Pacific nations, I doubt that the nations who could possibly institute such a tax are the same as those who are causing this problem.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    Taxing plastic would make it cost effective for manufacturers to switch to cardboard packaging. I.e. how things were packaged before 1960.
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      A switch to cardboard packaging would be fine in nations with lots of forests like USA. It would be a calamity in e.g. India, however.
      - skookumchuck 8y ago
        Why? The US can't find uses for all the recycled paper after China stopped taking it.
        jessaustin 8y ago
        Are you suggesting that India and similarly deforested nations will decide they need paper so badly that they'll pay to ship it from USA? Rather than just cutting down the last trees they have, or (more likely) continuing to use plastic? They can't afford virtue-signaling frivolities like we can. If recycled cardboard packaging makes so much sense why are we shipping paper waste to China and anywhere else that will take it? Answer: landfills overseas aren't as embarrassing for "recycling" programs as landfills in the same county. Personally I have nothing against paper/cardboard packaging. However, I note that people in USA have chosen plastic packaging for many applications. We can assume that the same reasons that motivate us, also motivate others. They also have other issues, like poverty. More regressive taxes on these populations will lead to more children dying of starvation. As another comment noted, the way to actually fix the plastic pollution problem (distinct from the plastic cleanup problem that TFA targets) is to identify the watersheds that produce 95% of the plastic, and then help them set up modern garbage handling at price points that those people can actually afford to use. They are very poor, which is why they're polluting in the first place. Also many of these watersheds are islands with few suitable landfill locations. Instead of talking about silly things like laws that should be passed in other nations, let's talk about how much aid will be required to actually fix this problem.
cultus 8y ago
It's not though. The ocean is big, it is violent. This won't work. https://www.kcet.org/redefine/6-reasons-that-floating-ocean-plastic-cleanup-gizmo-is-a-horrible-idea https://www.kcet.org/redefine/6-reasons-that-floating-ocean-...
mreome 8y ago
The problem is your assuming "build a big ocean plastic harvester" is a totally valid solution that won't potentially add to the problem. Just because it's something an individual can do, doesn't mean it's good idea. How much will it hurt the ecosystem it's supposed help? Who is going maintain it? Who is going to recover it when it is torn apart in a storm?

by emtel 8y ago

Well, okay, but "make the entire world stop making plastic" is not something that an individual can actually do, while "build a big ocean plastic harvester" evidently is.

skookumchuck 8y ago

Putting a tax on plastic would be a great start.

cududa 8y ago
To reiterate the above post, that's not something an individual can do. Building an ocean skimmer is
- mreome 8y ago
  So... an individual is apparently capable of constructing thousands of miles worth of marine-environment infrastructure in international waters crisscrossed by global shipping routes, managing the continuing maintenance of such infrastructure, and the logistics of collecting transportation and disposable of thousands of tons of waste... but is unable to effect political change of any kind?
  - cududa 8y ago
    That's absolutely something an individual can pull off. Changing international environmental policy seems way more difficult.
    - mreome 8y ago
      The point I was trying to make is that it isn't something that can be done as an individual, even if it works, at scale it will cost billions of dollars annually to operate, and will require the full time work of thousands of people. So pointing out that an individual can't change internally policy is a false comparison.
      - cududa 8y ago
        $28 million to launch the first version. Raising that much money and recruiting a team is easier than influencing election outcomes in numerous (probably 100+) elections.
jessaustin 8y ago
After swimming (or attempting to swim, in those cases like Bacolod Philippines where the ocean was completely choked with floating trash) in the waters off various Pacific nations, I doubt that the nations who could possibly institute such a tax are the same as those who are causing this problem.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  Taxing plastic would make it cost effective for manufacturers to switch to cardboard packaging. I.e. how things were packaged before 1960.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    A switch to cardboard packaging would be fine in nations with lots of forests like USA. It would be a calamity in e.g. India, however.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      Why? The US can't find uses for all the recycled paper after China stopped taking it.
      - jessaustin 8y ago
        Are you suggesting that India and similarly deforested nations will decide they need paper so badly that they'll pay to ship it from USA? Rather than just cutting down the last trees they have, or (more likely) continuing to use plastic? They can't afford virtue-signaling frivolities like we can. If recycled cardboard packaging makes so much sense why are we shipping paper waste to China and anywhere else that will take it? Answer: landfills overseas aren't as embarrassing for "recycling" programs as landfills in the same county. Personally I have nothing against paper/cardboard packaging. However, I note that people in USA have chosen plastic packaging for many applications. We can assume that the same reasons that motivate us, also motivate others. They also have other issues, like poverty. More regressive taxes on these populations will lead to more children dying of starvation. As another comment noted, the way to actually fix the plastic pollution problem (distinct from the plastic cleanup problem that TFA targets) is to identify the watersheds that produce 95% of the plastic, and then help them set up modern garbage handling at price points that those people can actually afford to use. They are very poor, which is why they're polluting in the first place. Also many of these watersheds are islands with few suitable landfill locations. Instead of talking about silly things like laws that should be passed in other nations, let's talk about how much aid will be required to actually fix this problem.

cultus 8y ago

It's not though. The ocean is big, it is violent. This won't work. https://www.kcet.org/redefine/6-reasons-that-floating-ocean-plastic-cleanup-gizmo-is-a-horrible-idea https://www.kcet.org/redefine/6-reasons-that-floating-ocean-...

mreome 8y ago

The problem is your assuming "build a big ocean plastic harvester" is a totally valid solution that won't potentially add to the problem. Just because it's something an individual can do, doesn't mean it's good idea. How much will it hurt the ecosystem it's supposed help? Who is going maintain it? Who is going to recover it when it is torn apart in a storm?