4 ms·

> And yes, institutional racism also exists in France (and in every other European country) but it’s much less normalised than in the US. This is the line that

> And yes, institutional racism also exists in France (and in every other European country) but it’s much less normalised than in the US. This is the line that white people in France often say, but it's completely wrong. Racism is much more institutionalized in France than it is in the US. Racism is so institutionalized in France that it's almost impossible to talk about it, because it's woven into the legal and societal fabric and so deeply embedded. > Basic personal safety is a prerequisite for freedom You are dramatically overestimating the extent to which it is safe to exist in France as someone who is Black, Arab, or Muslim. Which is a common mistake, given that France has literally made it illegal to collect data on police brutality and incarceration rates of minorities in France, the way we can in the US. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or that France isn't also an incredibly dangerous place for minorities - and arguably much more so - as anyone (like myself) who looks Black, Arab, or Muslim and has so much as traveled to France or lived there can attest.

jimmaswell 8y ago
I remember in high school, my French teacher said racism was much more overt over there and in Europe in general.
klmr 8y ago
> France has literally made it illegal to collect data on police brutality and incarceration rates of minorities in France You’ll need to provide a good reference for that because this is completely wrong as far as I know (AI doesn’t mention it, for instance [1]). Again, don’t get me wrong: I deeply disagree with the way police acts and is organised in France. [1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/press-releases/2009/04/france-police-above-law-20090402/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/press-releases/2009/04/france-pol...
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > You’ll need to provide a good reference for that because this is completely wrong as far as I know (AI doesn’t mention it, for instance [1]). Since 1978, it's been illegal in France to collect census information on race. This is done under the guise of providing "equality under the law". In practice, as pretty much any minority could predict, all it does is make it impossible to actually talk about the systemic discrimination which happens[0]. You say you lived in France for several years, and yet you're not aware that it's impossible to legally collect data on anything related to racial, ethnic, or religious minorities (including police brutality and incarceration rates). Which, in a way, is my exact point: making it impossible to talk about these issues in France doesn't mean that they don't happen; it just means that people who aren't affected by them aren't aware of them, and so they can continue believing the illusion that this racism somehow doesn't exist, or isn't as bad as it really is. [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/how-french-law-makes-minorities-invisible-a7416656.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/how-french...
  - klmr 8y ago
    Look, I obviously know about this law but this is a completely different thing from what you claimed and it doesn't mean at all that it's forbidden to catalogue police crimes against minorities. I will concede that it makes it harder to do so by referring to official records (and this is indeed a problem). But your comment sounded like it would be illegal to, for instance, independently collect complaints. And it's emphatically not. Amnesty and others do exactly that, including looking at racial factors.
  - etiennemarcel 8y ago
    Ethnic statistics are not totally forbidden, they're very strongly regulated. http://www.liberation.fr/checknews/2018/01/16/est-ce-que-les-statistiques-ethniques-sont-interdites-en-france_1652990 http://www.liberation.fr/checknews/2018/01/16/est-ce-que-les... Yet if tomorrow these statistics were allowed and were to show (for example) that 50% of people in jail are Muslim, what would be the use of that number? The far left would use it as proof of discrimination and the far right that muslims are a danger to society. Societies like the US where there's a "race" checkbox on forms and where ethnic statistics are legal, are far from being less racist or discriminatory...

jimmaswell 8y ago

I remember in high school, my French teacher said racism was much more overt over there and in Europe in general.

klmr 8y ago

> France has literally made it illegal to collect data on police brutality and incarceration rates of minorities in France You’ll need to provide a good reference for that because this is completely wrong as far as I know (AI doesn’t mention it, for instance [1]). Again, don’t get me wrong: I deeply disagree with the way police acts and is organised in France. [1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/press-releases/2009/04/france-police-above-law-20090402/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/press-releases/2009/04/france-pol...

chimeracoder 8y ago
> You’ll need to provide a good reference for that because this is completely wrong as far as I know (AI doesn’t mention it, for instance [1]). Since 1978, it's been illegal in France to collect census information on race. This is done under the guise of providing "equality under the law". In practice, as pretty much any minority could predict, all it does is make it impossible to actually talk about the systemic discrimination which happens[0]. You say you lived in France for several years, and yet you're not aware that it's impossible to legally collect data on anything related to racial, ethnic, or religious minorities (including police brutality and incarceration rates). Which, in a way, is my exact point: making it impossible to talk about these issues in France doesn't mean that they don't happen; it just means that people who aren't affected by them aren't aware of them, and so they can continue believing the illusion that this racism somehow doesn't exist, or isn't as bad as it really is. [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/how-french-law-makes-minorities-invisible-a7416656.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/how-french...
- klmr 8y ago
  Look, I obviously know about this law but this is a completely different thing from what you claimed and it doesn't mean at all that it's forbidden to catalogue police crimes against minorities. I will concede that it makes it harder to do so by referring to official records (and this is indeed a problem). But your comment sounded like it would be illegal to, for instance, independently collect complaints. And it's emphatically not. Amnesty and others do exactly that, including looking at racial factors.
- etiennemarcel 8y ago
  Ethnic statistics are not totally forbidden, they're very strongly regulated. http://www.liberation.fr/checknews/2018/01/16/est-ce-que-les-statistiques-ethniques-sont-interdites-en-france_1652990 http://www.liberation.fr/checknews/2018/01/16/est-ce-que-les... Yet if tomorrow these statistics were allowed and were to show (for example) that 50% of people in jail are Muslim, what would be the use of that number? The far left would use it as proof of discrimination and the far right that muslims are a danger to society. Societies like the US where there's a "race" checkbox on forms and where ethnic statistics are legal, are far from being less racist or discriminatory...