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Holy crap on a stick. These new laws are just stupid. I don't generally see eye to eye with libertarians (or whoever advocates for minimal interference of stat

by Ygg2 8y ago

Holy crap on a stick. These new laws are just stupid. I don't generally see eye to eye with libertarians (or whoever advocates for minimal interference of state), but out of touch laws like this are just the worst.

jimmaswell 8y ago
The EU and its member states have a penchant for crazy laws like this, GDPR, local movie quotas on services like Netflix, arresting people who train their dog to do a bellamy salute, arresting people for having potato peelers in public, and so on. I can't think of a single reason other than vacation days that I'd ever want to live there. I'm aware comparisons to 1984 are a cliche but the EU truly has been inching towards it.
- adrianN 8y ago
  GDPR is not a crazy law and it's pretty much the opposite of what you'd expect in a '1984' state.
  - jimmaswell 8y ago
    It unnecessarily limits the freedom of anybody who owns a website and doesn't grant any actual freedom to anybody else, almost as if the governments want to be the only ones allowed to collect data.
    - M2Ys4U 8y ago
      The right to privacy is a human right. It's like saying that laws against torture limit the freedom of anybody who owns thumb screws. Well, yes, because _not being tortured_ is a right that everybody has.
      - jimmaswell 8y ago
        Why is it your human right that if you write your name on a piece of paper and give it to someone, you can use the state to force them to give you the paper back or destroy it? That's GDPR.
- skummetmaelk 8y ago
  Come on now. You cannot compare this to GPDR. GPDR was about protecting individuals, this is about protecting corporate interests. That's why this seems batshit crazy and GPDR is reasonable. The rest of your points are worthless anecdotes. Yes it may have happened once, and yes it was stupid, but it's not like you will be chased down by the police if you walk around with a potato peeler. You cannot seriously believe that.
  - timrichard 8y ago
    > GPDR was about protecting individuals, this is about protecting corporate interests Or how about both rooted in a power-grab by an aspiring superstate that has long been resentful of the influence the US and it's corporates has over it's Internet-dependent citizens? Or perhaps I'm being too cynical. The remote, barely accountable, hard-lobbied politicians are only looking out for individuals. These new content filter and link tax proposals as just anomalies.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    Please stop judging a law on what it's about but instead on its real life consequences. Intent matters little if people/companies are unnecessarily hurt.
    - Tomte 8y ago
      People aren't hurt by less data-selling. I love the GDPR. It came out of nowhere (I hadn't heard much about it before the big hubbub), I couldn't believe they were doing something so bold, and it reinvigorated my belief in the European Union.
      - kodablah 8y ago
        > People aren't hurt by less data-selling You're doing the intent thing where you are saying what you think is the case or the intent instead of the reality. People are hurt by the money they spend applying reasonable compliance risk avoidance measures when new laws come out. People running companies, employees of those companies, customers of those companies, and society as a whole. Maybe you feel the harm is worth it, but please stop pretending it doesn't exist. And it didn't come out of nowhere, data protection laws had existed before, didn't work before, so they doubled down on the already-failed legislative approach with the same not-working institutions instead of taking more practical or incremental approaches.
- interfixus 8y ago
  Some of us actually do live here. And some of us absolutely share your views. But you need look no further than this very forum to see one country's feeble attempts to leave the sorry cirkus habitually likened to the end of civilisation as we know it. We're on a road to nowhere good whatsoever.
- ethelward 8y ago
  > GDPR “My oh my, we won't be able to sell people online life without them knowing it” > local movie quotas on services like Netflix Promoting local culture, what a shame. > arresting people who train their dog to do a bellamy salute Of course, if someone is training their dog to do a “Bellamy” salute when prompted by statements including “Heil Hitler” and “gas the Jews”, the chances that this guy is a closet neo-nazi are so low[0] – BTW, you're the only one presenting it as a Bellamy salute, that sounds like if you were trying to cover a neo-nazi. > I can't think of a single reason other than vacation days that I'd ever want to live there. Nah, even for vacations, please don't come here, it's awful, you wouldn't like it. [0] https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/scottish-man-who-taught-dog-to-do-nazi-salute-crowdfunds-over-185-000-1.6032122 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/scottish-man-who-t...
  - jimmaswell 8y ago
    I meant having a guaranteed number of vacation days. And I don't care if the guy was a neo-nazi; it shouldn't be the government's job to decide what jokes are too offensive.
    - Tomte 8y ago
      Strange how Anmericans always think it's bad that parts of Europe ban outright Nazi symbols and speech, when it was America that forced us to do so. Americans even shut down newspapers after WW2 and only gave out licenses to start a newspaper after background checks and ideological checks. Strange how things you made us do somehow morphed into something that you cannot accept at all.
- klmr 8y ago
  That’s pure trolling: First off, the Article 13 in question was already rejected once by Parliament and is expected to be repealed against (but it doesn’t hurt to be cautious, good on Mozilla). > GDPR While not uncontroversial, GDPR is generally seen as a good thing by experts. > arresting people who train their dog to do a bellamy salute This didn’t happen. The man was arrested for hate speech, not for gestures his dog made. It’s also unrelated to EU law. > arresting people for having potato peelers in public This didn’t happen. The man was arrested for wielding a weapon in public. This weapon happened to be a knife (but not a potato peeler, though it was called that by the press: it had a fixed > 3″ long blade) but the nature of the weapon is secondary; what’s relevant for the arrest was the fact that the man wielded it as a weapon. And, again, this has nothing to do with EU legislation. And some additional context: the knife wielding laws in the UK are indeed pretty draconian but the UK, which is generally pretty low on violent crimes, has a specific problem with knife crimes and is therefore tackling the problem heads-on. Seems reasonable. > I can't think of a single reason other than vacation days that I'd ever want to live there. Really? https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.j... (In fact, even with occasional questionable laws being passed on EU levels the legal situation in the EU, both on EU and on country level, is still a lot saner than e.g. in the US.)
  - raverbashing 8y ago
    > First off, the Article 13 in question was already rejected once by Parliament and is expected to be repealed against (but it doesn’t hurt to be cautious, good on Mozilla). As they say, don't count your chickens before they're hatched
    - klmr 8y ago
      I’m not — I’m actually contacting my MEP.
    - jotm 8y ago
      Rejected by a very close vote, must I say. That's ridiculous, imo
  - 8y ago
- pjc50 8y ago
  I'm assuming that "bellamy" is a weird autocorrect for "Hitler", in which case I refer to my recent comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17927075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17927075 The illegal act was sending the threatening message "gas the jews" through a telecommunications system. The potato peeler incident: https://dailycaller.com/2018/05/03/british-man-arrested-for-wielding-potato-peeler/ https://dailycaller.com/2018/05/03/british-man-arrested-for-... Homeless man with learning difficulties wielding a knife-like object in public? In both cases the relevant law is UK domestic criminal law, not EU law.
  - GW150914 8y ago
    Actually the Bellamy Salute was a thing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute The Bellamy salute is a palm-out salute described by Francis Bellamy, the author of the American Pledge of Allegiance, as the gesture which was to accompany the pledge. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute". Both the Pledge and its salute originated in 1892. Later, during the 1920s and 1930s, Italian fascists and Nazis adopted a salute which was very similar, and which was derived from the Roman salute, a gesture that was popularly (albeit erroneously) believed to have been used in ancient Rome.[1] This resulted in controversy over the use of the Bellamy salute in the United States. It was officially replaced by the hand-over-heart salute when Congress amended the Flag Code on December 22, 1942. Along with the swastika, just another thing the fascists stole and corrupted.
- lucozade 8y ago
  You are absolutely correct. If you have ever owned a potato peeler or a right-leaning dog, it is imperative that you never set foot in Europe. It's just not worth taking that chance. I'm sure the poor folk in Europe will manage to struggle on without you and they thank you for your concern.

by Ygg2 8y ago

jimmaswell 8y ago

The EU and its member states have a penchant for crazy laws like this, GDPR, local movie quotas on services like Netflix, arresting people who train their dog to do a bellamy salute, arresting people for having potato peelers in public, and so on. I can't think of a single reason other than vacation days that I'd ever want to live there. I'm aware comparisons to 1984 are a cliche but the EU truly has been inching towards it.

adrianN 8y ago
GDPR is not a crazy law and it's pretty much the opposite of what you'd expect in a '1984' state.
- jimmaswell 8y ago
  It unnecessarily limits the freedom of anybody who owns a website and doesn't grant any actual freedom to anybody else, almost as if the governments want to be the only ones allowed to collect data.
  - M2Ys4U 8y ago
    The right to privacy is a human right. It's like saying that laws against torture limit the freedom of anybody who owns thumb screws. Well, yes, because _not being tortured_ is a right that everybody has.
    - jimmaswell 8y ago
      Why is it your human right that if you write your name on a piece of paper and give it to someone, you can use the state to force them to give you the paper back or destroy it? That's GDPR.
skummetmaelk 8y ago
Come on now. You cannot compare this to GPDR. GPDR was about protecting individuals, this is about protecting corporate interests. That's why this seems batshit crazy and GPDR is reasonable. The rest of your points are worthless anecdotes. Yes it may have happened once, and yes it was stupid, but it's not like you will be chased down by the police if you walk around with a potato peeler. You cannot seriously believe that.
- timrichard 8y ago
  > GPDR was about protecting individuals, this is about protecting corporate interests Or how about both rooted in a power-grab by an aspiring superstate that has long been resentful of the influence the US and it's corporates has over it's Internet-dependent citizens? Or perhaps I'm being too cynical. The remote, barely accountable, hard-lobbied politicians are only looking out for individuals. These new content filter and link tax proposals as just anomalies.
- kodablah 8y ago
  Please stop judging a law on what it's about but instead on its real life consequences. Intent matters little if people/companies are unnecessarily hurt.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    People aren't hurt by less data-selling. I love the GDPR. It came out of nowhere (I hadn't heard much about it before the big hubbub), I couldn't believe they were doing something so bold, and it reinvigorated my belief in the European Union.
    - kodablah 8y ago
      > People aren't hurt by less data-selling You're doing the intent thing where you are saying what you think is the case or the intent instead of the reality. People are hurt by the money they spend applying reasonable compliance risk avoidance measures when new laws come out. People running companies, employees of those companies, customers of those companies, and society as a whole. Maybe you feel the harm is worth it, but please stop pretending it doesn't exist. And it didn't come out of nowhere, data protection laws had existed before, didn't work before, so they doubled down on the already-failed legislative approach with the same not-working institutions instead of taking more practical or incremental approaches.
interfixus 8y ago
Some of us actually do live here. And some of us absolutely share your views. But you need look no further than this very forum to see one country's feeble attempts to leave the sorry cirkus habitually likened to the end of civilisation as we know it. We're on a road to nowhere good whatsoever.
ethelward 8y ago
> GDPR “My oh my, we won't be able to sell people online life without them knowing it” > local movie quotas on services like Netflix Promoting local culture, what a shame. > arresting people who train their dog to do a bellamy salute Of course, if someone is training their dog to do a “Bellamy” salute when prompted by statements including “Heil Hitler” and “gas the Jews”, the chances that this guy is a closet neo-nazi are so low[0] – BTW, you're the only one presenting it as a Bellamy salute, that sounds like if you were trying to cover a neo-nazi. > I can't think of a single reason other than vacation days that I'd ever want to live there. Nah, even for vacations, please don't come here, it's awful, you wouldn't like it. [0] https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/scottish-man-who-taught-dog-to-do-nazi-salute-crowdfunds-over-185-000-1.6032122 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/scottish-man-who-t...
- jimmaswell 8y ago
  I meant having a guaranteed number of vacation days. And I don't care if the guy was a neo-nazi; it shouldn't be the government's job to decide what jokes are too offensive.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    Strange how Anmericans always think it's bad that parts of Europe ban outright Nazi symbols and speech, when it was America that forced us to do so. Americans even shut down newspapers after WW2 and only gave out licenses to start a newspaper after background checks and ideological checks. Strange how things you made us do somehow morphed into something that you cannot accept at all.
klmr 8y ago
That’s pure trolling: First off, the Article 13 in question was already rejected once by Parliament and is expected to be repealed against (but it doesn’t hurt to be cautious, good on Mozilla). > GDPR While not uncontroversial, GDPR is generally seen as a good thing by experts. > arresting people who train their dog to do a bellamy salute This didn’t happen. The man was arrested for hate speech, not for gestures his dog made. It’s also unrelated to EU law. > arresting people for having potato peelers in public This didn’t happen. The man was arrested for wielding a weapon in public. This weapon happened to be a knife (but not a potato peeler, though it was called that by the press: it had a fixed > 3″ long blade) but the nature of the weapon is secondary; what’s relevant for the arrest was the fact that the man wielded it as a weapon. And, again, this has nothing to do with EU legislation. And some additional context: the knife wielding laws in the UK are indeed pretty draconian but the UK, which is generally pretty low on violent crimes, has a specific problem with knife crimes and is therefore tackling the problem heads-on. Seems reasonable. > I can't think of a single reason other than vacation days that I'd ever want to live there. Really? https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.j... (In fact, even with occasional questionable laws being passed on EU levels the legal situation in the EU, both on EU and on country level, is still a lot saner than e.g. in the US.)
- raverbashing 8y ago
  > First off, the Article 13 in question was already rejected once by Parliament and is expected to be repealed against (but it doesn’t hurt to be cautious, good on Mozilla). As they say, don't count your chickens before they're hatched
  - klmr 8y ago
    I’m not — I’m actually contacting my MEP.
  - jotm 8y ago
    Rejected by a very close vote, must I say. That's ridiculous, imo
- 8y ago
pjc50 8y ago
I'm assuming that "bellamy" is a weird autocorrect for "Hitler", in which case I refer to my recent comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17927075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17927075 The illegal act was sending the threatening message "gas the jews" through a telecommunications system. The potato peeler incident: https://dailycaller.com/2018/05/03/british-man-arrested-for-wielding-potato-peeler/ https://dailycaller.com/2018/05/03/british-man-arrested-for-... Homeless man with learning difficulties wielding a knife-like object in public? In both cases the relevant law is UK domestic criminal law, not EU law.
- GW150914 8y ago
  Actually the Bellamy Salute was a thing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute The Bellamy salute is a palm-out salute described by Francis Bellamy, the author of the American Pledge of Allegiance, as the gesture which was to accompany the pledge. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute". Both the Pledge and its salute originated in 1892. Later, during the 1920s and 1930s, Italian fascists and Nazis adopted a salute which was very similar, and which was derived from the Roman salute, a gesture that was popularly (albeit erroneously) believed to have been used in ancient Rome.[1] This resulted in controversy over the use of the Bellamy salute in the United States. It was officially replaced by the hand-over-heart salute when Congress amended the Flag Code on December 22, 1942. Along with the swastika, just another thing the fascists stole and corrupted.
lucozade 8y ago
You are absolutely correct. If you have ever owned a potato peeler or a right-leaning dog, it is imperative that you never set foot in Europe. It's just not worth taking that chance. I'm sure the poor folk in Europe will manage to struggle on without you and they thank you for your concern.