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It's staggering that this is the top voted comment. > car loan most of America doesn't have any way of getting to jobs without one > eat anything but rice an

It's staggering that this is the top voted comment. > car loan most of America doesn't have any way of getting to jobs without one > eat anything but rice and beans most people need fundamental nutrients from vegetables just to be able to survive, these vegetables tend to be more expensive than less healthy things > a >$30 month cell phone bill internet access gates opportunity in American and for many people their cell phone (which they cannot afford to pay for up front and therefore must lease) and its data plan is there only gateway to the rest of the world > drink anything but water, have cable tv (or assuming Netflix) any right to a Gatorade after shooting hoops at your dilapidated public park on a hot day, any right to 30 mins of entertainment after working your mind numbing job that drains of you all life > You've got obvious improvements you can make to get out of that dilemma. Why? Why is the right to a just life gated by the requirement to surrender basic humanity? Who is this we? A toss off link to a Wikipedia article? The Census Bureau itself says American household income is the same since 1987 [1] while cost of housing, education and healthcare goes 2x-3x in the last decade alone [2] How does a world view like this even get formed? [1] https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/09/MedianHouseholdIncome.png&w=1484 https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://...) [2] http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-... This place baffles me sometimes.

ryandrake 8y ago
This idea that having a car and eating more than beans and water means you’re spending too much comes from those (slightly fanatical) Money Mustache followers. I agree that we should not advocate for a world where we have to sacrifice a middle class lifestyle in order to retire middle class.
- the_gastropod 8y ago
  If you're broke. If you're in debt, you absolutely should be making some sacrifices to get out of debt. Once you have some money saved, feel free to spend on the luxuries you most desire.
  - sharkmerry 8y ago
    But you mentioned car and internet services, those are not luxuries in this day and age when they are required for work
    - EADGBE 8y ago
      Car and/or internet aren't required for all work.
- EADGBE 8y ago
  I think you're solely being downvoted for "bashing" MMM. Agreed, MMM followers are die-hard. And I honestly applaud them for that. There's a middle road he also preaches about, realizing his method won't work for most people. Though I'd bet that most people don't get that far in his blog when he begins to talk about that. I think if we use the big takeaways from what he's saying; we can all gain a little financial independence. Not everyone can get away with what he can in a beautiful town in Colorado. And he realizes that. They're all saying the same sorts of things: Financial Advisors, Dave Ramsey, MMM et. al. The fact that most people aren't listening to them is the truly alarming part of it: Save, and don't overspend; or you'll be working for the rest of your life.
the_gastropod 8y ago
> most of America doesn't have any way of getting to jobs without one Two things: 1. That's patently false. Most trips in vehicles are between 1 and 10 miles in distance. Anyone without serious health problems can do that on a bicycle quite easily. 2. You don't need a car loan to own a car. > most people need fundamental nutrients from vegetables just to be able to survive, these vegetables tend to be more expensive than less healthy things My statement was about people who were broke and/or in debt. And it's not a 100% meal plan, but rice and beans is a good cheap staple food. You can add in cheap produce, too. The crux of the point is: if you're in debt and spending more than ~$1 per meal, you've got an easy way to cut costs. > internet access gates opportunity in American and for many people their cell phone (which they cannot afford to pay for up front and therefore must lease) and its data plan is there only gateway to the rest of the world Libraries have free internet and computers. And for cell service, using an MVNO, you can spend ~$30 and get 1GB of data, 100 mins of talk time, 100 text messages. (see Ting.com for example) >any right to a Gatorade after shooting hoops at your dilapidated public park on a hot day, any right to 30 mins of entertainment after working your mind numbing job that drains of you all life Are you serious? Getting out of debt is infinitely more important than having a Gatorade or watching Netflix. Especially when there are obvious free alternatives. Streaming Netflix hasn't been around a decade, and it's now "surrendering basic humanity" to go without? That's a pretty fragile position to take.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  That means a 45 min long trip each day to work. Hopefully you have a shower and clothes change, I'm assuming very fast driving here. Otherwise 2h each averaging "comfortable but fast" 10 mph. (silly units) Good luck trying to actually hold such an average. Dependents will be a major problem in such a scheme, adding another 2 hours. Unless there is a good bus connection, give it half an hour then. (those are not free but still inexpensive) Libraries put even more pressure on transportation. It should be cheaper to use a mail order service. Heck, even for bigger groceries. These are costs all hidden in plain sight. Everything takes a lot of time in the US if your mode of transport is not a car. Now to own a cheap used car also has costs. And a poor person cannot afford a cheap modern car, used car market is full of landmines and a poorer person cannot afford even one failure in this regard.

ryandrake 8y ago

This idea that having a car and eating more than beans and water means you’re spending too much comes from those (slightly fanatical) Money Mustache followers. I agree that we should not advocate for a world where we have to sacrifice a middle class lifestyle in order to retire middle class.

the_gastropod 8y ago
If you're broke. If you're in debt, you absolutely should be making some sacrifices to get out of debt. Once you have some money saved, feel free to spend on the luxuries you most desire.
- sharkmerry 8y ago
  But you mentioned car and internet services, those are not luxuries in this day and age when they are required for work
  - EADGBE 8y ago
    Car and/or internet aren't required for all work.
EADGBE 8y ago
I think you're solely being downvoted for "bashing" MMM. Agreed, MMM followers are die-hard. And I honestly applaud them for that. There's a middle road he also preaches about, realizing his method won't work for most people. Though I'd bet that most people don't get that far in his blog when he begins to talk about that. I think if we use the big takeaways from what he's saying; we can all gain a little financial independence. Not everyone can get away with what he can in a beautiful town in Colorado. And he realizes that. They're all saying the same sorts of things: Financial Advisors, Dave Ramsey, MMM et. al. The fact that most people aren't listening to them is the truly alarming part of it: Save, and don't overspend; or you'll be working for the rest of your life.

the_gastropod 8y ago

> most of America doesn't have any way of getting to jobs without one Two things: 1. That's patently false. Most trips in vehicles are between 1 and 10 miles in distance. Anyone without serious health problems can do that on a bicycle quite easily. 2. You don't need a car loan to own a car. > most people need fundamental nutrients from vegetables just to be able to survive, these vegetables tend to be more expensive than less healthy things My statement was about people who were broke and/or in debt. And it's not a 100% meal plan, but rice and beans is a good cheap staple food. You can add in cheap produce, too. The crux of the point is: if you're in debt and spending more than ~$1 per meal, you've got an easy way to cut costs. > internet access gates opportunity in American and for many people their cell phone (which they cannot afford to pay for up front and therefore must lease) and its data plan is there only gateway to the rest of the world Libraries have free internet and computers. And for cell service, using an MVNO, you can spend ~$30 and get 1GB of data, 100 mins of talk time, 100 text messages. (see Ting.com for example) >any right to a Gatorade after shooting hoops at your dilapidated public park on a hot day, any right to 30 mins of entertainment after working your mind numbing job that drains of you all life Are you serious? Getting out of debt is infinitely more important than having a Gatorade or watching Netflix. Especially when there are obvious free alternatives. Streaming Netflix hasn't been around a decade, and it's now "surrendering basic humanity" to go without? That's a pretty fragile position to take.

AstralStorm 8y ago
That means a 45 min long trip each day to work. Hopefully you have a shower and clothes change, I'm assuming very fast driving here. Otherwise 2h each averaging "comfortable but fast" 10 mph. (silly units) Good luck trying to actually hold such an average. Dependents will be a major problem in such a scheme, adding another 2 hours. Unless there is a good bus connection, give it half an hour then. (those are not free but still inexpensive) Libraries put even more pressure on transportation. It should be cheaper to use a mail order service. Heck, even for bigger groceries. These are costs all hidden in plain sight. Everything takes a lot of time in the US if your mode of transport is not a car. Now to own a cheap used car also has costs. And a poor person cannot afford a cheap modern car, used car market is full of landmines and a poorer person cannot afford even one failure in this regard.