5 ms·

It is worse than that for some users. I've seen actual users that type/paste real url's into google's search box in order to go to the site. They actually had

by pwg 8y ago

It is worse than that for some users. I've seen actual users that type/paste real url's into google's search box in order to go to the site. They actually had no idea that the bar at the top of the browser that said "google" (since they/someone set their default homepage to google) was a place where they could delete "google.com" and type/paste the url they wanted to visit there instead to actually get to the site they wanted to visit.

pests 8y ago
You seem shocked at this with word usage like "actual users", "real url's" and "actually no idea" But how are we to expect users to know any better until general technology literacy improves? Many people can't tell you the difference between a modem, router, OS, browser, or website. I remember years ago sitting down with my elderly grandmother trying to show her how to use a desktop... We are too close to our work so everything is familiar and easy. Even the concept of moving the mouse on a table to represent moving the mouse cursor on the screen is something we take for granted. Tell someone who's never used a mouse before to double click something to open it. You have to start way back earlier at the concept of which physical button on the mouse to use. This turned more into a general rant about how we overestimate regular users but I'ts been on my mind for awhile.
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  > "Many people can't tell you the difference between a modem, router, OS, browser, or website." They don't care, nor should they. How many people know how many spark plugs are in their car? You're correct. We, the more tech-literate, take too much for granted; and most experiences and learning curves are too far over the head of the "average" user. It's not them. It's us.
  - pvorb 8y ago
    I think the comparison to spark plugs is misleading when we talk about URLs and security. It's more like looking in the mirror before changing lanes. It's something you need to check in order to stay safe. Mirrors, like URLs, are just an implementation detail. But since currently driving works with mirrors, you have to learn how to use them.
    - pests 8y ago
      The benefit is obvious in that instance. There is a very direct connection between checking your mirrors and not hitting a car as you merge or similar. Where is the cause and effect for a URL or SSL cert? There is no learning experience. Furthermore as some have claimed, and I've personally witnessed, for some URLS's literally dont exist. Just type whatever site you want into the google box and hope you get lucky.
    - Godel_unicode 8y ago
      I think the spark plugs example is an excellent one. People used to require an extensive knowledge of how cars worked in order to have a prayer of using them effectively. Now they don't, because we realized none of that knowledge is necessary if you design the system correctly. We have enough historical context to realize that things like parsing URLs by eye is unsafe for the general population, and always will be. The solution is to engineer that need out of existence. You might want to consider that manufacturers have added blind spot detectors to cars as people are bad at changing lanes safely, even with all the training in the world.
      - mirko22 8y ago
        when did you have to know how spark plugs work to drive a car? And isn’t this why car mechanics exist? On the other hand you had to learn at some point what and RPM gauge is... And we still have it in cars even though you could say you don’t really need it.
        EmpirePhoenix 8y ago
        My car does not have a RPM gauge, instead it has two arrows that suggest when to gear up or down (it is manual) One could say the interface was dumbed down to the minimum.
        mirko22 8y ago
        my brand new one has a lot of gauges... so i’d say my point is still valid. And i find them extremely useful, cos you can make better use of fuel if you know what they mean.
  - philwelch 8y ago
    It's not about knowing how many spark plugs are in their car. It's more about buying a car that comes with a custom power adapter plugged into the cigarette lighter, never realizing that you can plug your own accessories into the cigarette lighter instead of buying your phone charger or GPS from the car company, and then not caring when they just take away the cigarette lighter and replace it with their own custom port.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      Since we know all analogies breakdown under close inspection, I'm pushing the idea that the best analogy is actually a brief description of the event / idea itself. So in this case: Not display www. in the address bar is actually a whole lot like not display www. in the address bar.
      - philwelch 8y ago
        And if anyone doesn't understand why that is a bad idea, maybe we should explain it to them, which might require using admittedly imperfect analogies that they can nonetheless understand.
  - jwalton 8y ago
    Do you seriously not know how many spark plugs are in your car? It's the same as the number of cylinders. How could you not know that? They absolutely should care. They should be aware that when they store things in "the cloud" they are not stored on their device and are visible to third parties. They should understand what encryption is and how to use it. "I don't know what I'm doing, and I didn't get the result I wanted, but it's not my fault it's the machine" is not an acceptable statement, whether we're talking about cars or computers.
    - pests 8y ago
      I don't even know how many cylinders I have!* Why should I care? Put key in. Press gas down. Car goes forward. Works for me. "How do you not know that?" Why would I need to know this? Why do I need to know what a cylinder is to drive? Is this even a logical question with electric cars now? You are arguing what should be vs. what is. * Well, I don't currently drive but I couldn't tell you with 100% accuracy the number of cylinders my last car had.
      - masswerk 8y ago
        I guess, the simile isn't entirely on the same level. You may not know how many cylinders there are in your car, like you may not know the number of cores in the CPU of your computer. They are both essentially hidden. But you do know how many pedals there are in the car and probably, how many switches there are for the lights, and that the wiper has different steps of speed etc. You even manage to control these few elements, because they are the user facing elements your dealing with, the interface. There's no need to unify the pedals into a single one and to have the car to decide, whether it means accelerate, break, or clutch. Doing so would alienate you from the very task of driving, from what it means and what risks are involved. Taking these few controls away from you in favor of an ambiguous I-know-it-all-so-you-should't-care interface of ultimate convenience would probably not increase the security of operations. On the other hand, we may expect you, as a driver, to know that there is a engine, that this is why the car moves, that it needs gas/petrol in order to run, that deacceleration is proportional to speed, etc. Why is it so different with anything involving a computer? Is it, because we're telling them so?

by pwg 8y ago

pests 8y ago

You seem shocked at this with word usage like "actual users", "real url's" and "actually no idea" But how are we to expect users to know any better until general technology literacy improves? Many people can't tell you the difference between a modem, router, OS, browser, or website. I remember years ago sitting down with my elderly grandmother trying to show her how to use a desktop... We are too close to our work so everything is familiar and easy. Even the concept of moving the mouse on a table to represent moving the mouse cursor on the screen is something we take for granted. Tell someone who's never used a mouse before to double click something to open it. You have to start way back earlier at the concept of which physical button on the mouse to use. This turned more into a general rant about how we overestimate regular users but I'ts been on my mind for awhile.

chiefalchemist 8y ago
> "Many people can't tell you the difference between a modem, router, OS, browser, or website." They don't care, nor should they. How many people know how many spark plugs are in their car? You're correct. We, the more tech-literate, take too much for granted; and most experiences and learning curves are too far over the head of the "average" user. It's not them. It's us.
- pvorb 8y ago
  I think the comparison to spark plugs is misleading when we talk about URLs and security. It's more like looking in the mirror before changing lanes. It's something you need to check in order to stay safe. Mirrors, like URLs, are just an implementation detail. But since currently driving works with mirrors, you have to learn how to use them.
  - pests 8y ago
    The benefit is obvious in that instance. There is a very direct connection between checking your mirrors and not hitting a car as you merge or similar. Where is the cause and effect for a URL or SSL cert? There is no learning experience. Furthermore as some have claimed, and I've personally witnessed, for some URLS's literally dont exist. Just type whatever site you want into the google box and hope you get lucky.
  - Godel_unicode 8y ago
    I think the spark plugs example is an excellent one. People used to require an extensive knowledge of how cars worked in order to have a prayer of using them effectively. Now they don't, because we realized none of that knowledge is necessary if you design the system correctly. We have enough historical context to realize that things like parsing URLs by eye is unsafe for the general population, and always will be. The solution is to engineer that need out of existence. You might want to consider that manufacturers have added blind spot detectors to cars as people are bad at changing lanes safely, even with all the training in the world.
    - mirko22 8y ago
      when did you have to know how spark plugs work to drive a car? And isn’t this why car mechanics exist? On the other hand you had to learn at some point what and RPM gauge is... And we still have it in cars even though you could say you don’t really need it.
      - EmpirePhoenix 8y ago
        My car does not have a RPM gauge, instead it has two arrows that suggest when to gear up or down (it is manual) One could say the interface was dumbed down to the minimum.
        mirko22 8y ago
        my brand new one has a lot of gauges... so i’d say my point is still valid. And i find them extremely useful, cos you can make better use of fuel if you know what they mean.
- philwelch 8y ago
  It's not about knowing how many spark plugs are in their car. It's more about buying a car that comes with a custom power adapter plugged into the cigarette lighter, never realizing that you can plug your own accessories into the cigarette lighter instead of buying your phone charger or GPS from the car company, and then not caring when they just take away the cigarette lighter and replace it with their own custom port.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    Since we know all analogies breakdown under close inspection, I'm pushing the idea that the best analogy is actually a brief description of the event / idea itself. So in this case: Not display www. in the address bar is actually a whole lot like not display www. in the address bar.
    - philwelch 8y ago
      And if anyone doesn't understand why that is a bad idea, maybe we should explain it to them, which might require using admittedly imperfect analogies that they can nonetheless understand.
- jwalton 8y ago
  Do you seriously not know how many spark plugs are in your car? It's the same as the number of cylinders. How could you not know that? They absolutely should care. They should be aware that when they store things in "the cloud" they are not stored on their device and are visible to third parties. They should understand what encryption is and how to use it. "I don't know what I'm doing, and I didn't get the result I wanted, but it's not my fault it's the machine" is not an acceptable statement, whether we're talking about cars or computers.
  - pests 8y ago
    I don't even know how many cylinders I have!* Why should I care? Put key in. Press gas down. Car goes forward. Works for me. "How do you not know that?" Why would I need to know this? Why do I need to know what a cylinder is to drive? Is this even a logical question with electric cars now? You are arguing what should be vs. what is. * Well, I don't currently drive but I couldn't tell you with 100% accuracy the number of cylinders my last car had.
    - masswerk 8y ago
      I guess, the simile isn't entirely on the same level. You may not know how many cylinders there are in your car, like you may not know the number of cores in the CPU of your computer. They are both essentially hidden. But you do know how many pedals there are in the car and probably, how many switches there are for the lights, and that the wiper has different steps of speed etc. You even manage to control these few elements, because they are the user facing elements your dealing with, the interface. There's no need to unify the pedals into a single one and to have the car to decide, whether it means accelerate, break, or clutch. Doing so would alienate you from the very task of driving, from what it means and what risks are involved. Taking these few controls away from you in favor of an ambiguous I-know-it-all-so-you-should't-care interface of ultimate convenience would probably not increase the security of operations. On the other hand, we may expect you, as a driver, to know that there is a engine, that this is why the car moves, that it needs gas/petrol in order to run, that deacceleration is proportional to speed, etc. Why is it so different with anything involving a computer? Is it, because we're telling them so?