4 ms·

no millennials expect to see a dime of social security income (whether or not this is justified is another question), nor do they have any plans to retire becau

no millennials expect to see a dime of social security income (whether or not this is justified is another question), nor do they have any plans to retire because the prospect of having enough money to do so is simply unrealistic for them. i am not the only one that has put their income, expenses, and savings rate into one of those "financial independence" calculators (http://mustachecalc.com/#/calcs/time-to-fi http://mustachecalc.com/#/calcs/time-to-fi). i found that my predicted retirement age was in my 130s if i was willing to settle for a very modest retirement with a lower standard of living than i currently have. that's right: i'm roughly 100 years from having enough money to retire, even if i save perfectly diligently every single month from now until then, which is extremely unlikely. it doesn't even make sense to plan for because i won't live that long; the calculation doesn't include anything along the lines of medical debt which is sure to accrue in old age if not sooner. the calculator may or may not be accurate to the decade, but it's accurate to the half-century in any event. if it's inaccurate by a half century in my favor, that still puts me as retiring in my late 80s -- hardly much more to look forward to. i am always harping on the same thing: 6.5% interest rate student loans, rising rent, rising living costs, lower income, rising healthcare costs, shrinking benefits, and no social safety net to speak of have totally devastated the economic prospects of a generation. the first plans to be thrown out the window during economic insecurity are the ones which are farthest away timewise. most people haven't had a chance to even plan that far in the first place. by the time they have accumulated enough resources to start saving some each month, they may be forced to take care of their then-elderly parents, or, alternatively, their children -- which most people can't afford anyway. so much for building up savings. to be clear, it isn't "work" that has failed us. it's capitalism.

jessaustin 8y ago
It's kind of awesome that the calculator doesn't cut off at e.g. 110.
lsh 8y ago
Speak for yourself, friend. You weren't born entitled to anything. I'm in better circumstances than you for my generation but it's unlikely I'll live to retirement age (disease). Grousing about 'capitalism' or the 'corporation' (or The Man, man) isn't going to change a single thing. I envy your clear vision of who to blame and where the problem lies but unless you get into a career in politics you're not changing anything. Easier to become an astronaut.
- balt_s 8y ago
  Let's see what happens in a decade.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    Indeed. I know people who deliberately don’t save for retirement because they are betting that by the time they are old, the majority of people also won’t have enough, and the government politically can’t let elderly people mass-die on the street. When the non-savers vastly outnumber the savers, the retirement problem could be solvable politically.
Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
Gonna insert my anecdata here. "no millennials" is just wrong. I'm a millennial (Though just barely, born in '82), and I fully expect to retire by 67, possibly by 65, and if markets do well, maybe even 62, and I didn't even begin saving for retirement until 3 years ago. I always question how many millennials complaining about student loan debt either didn't actually finish their degree, or they got a degree that doesn't lead to gainful employment due to lack of research before choosing a major, or they let themselves be bullshitted by some university's marketing and wayyyyy overpaid for their degree. Certainly millennials have the deck stacked against them, but with proper planning, they can be successful.
- kajecounterhack 8y ago
  > they got a degree that doesn't lead to gainful employment due to lack of research before choosing a major, or they let themselves be bullshitted by some university's marketing and wayyyyy overpaid for their degree. Correct. But this happens because not everyone is privileged enough to get good advice. The vast majority of 18 year olds know nothing, they've seen none of the world, and can only rely on the little knowledge they've acquired up to that point in their life. Lots of people go into college thinking "gee 100k loan, 50k loan, will be fine when I graduate and get a job." Capitalism is a system in which risk takers are rewarded / punished based on how their risky moves pan out. Unfortunately that means people with safety nets / more leeway to take risks (more wealthy) get more dice rolls and thus increase their wealth, vs if you're poor, you either stay poor, or in many cases if you look at what society's advice has been it's "go to college, a college degree means you'll make so much more money and even at the cost of $200k in debt will be worth it" <-- there's often no nuance like what field of study that gets incorporated into this common advice. It's one thing to say "capitalism is how things fall naturally." It's another to say "this is perfect and how it should work and nothing's broken, everyone gets their just desserts, capitalism is the only way, move along." I'm not saying that this is actually what you're trying to convey, but the anecdote you inserted here definitely rings of this (common) sentiment. > Certainly millennials have the deck stacked against them, but with proper planning, they can be successful. This is pretty bleak. A chance at success is true in any system. That the deck is stacked is the only salient point. I'll see your anecdote and raise you one more: talk to a few people who are the first to get college degrees in their family. I suspect you'll find that the vast majority of their parents offered no or even counter-productive advice when it comes to what field to study, or that it matters. Especially if the school they ended up at is one like Harvard/Stanford; there's some pretty good writing about what it's like to be very poor at those schools. The gap is widening between rich and poor, straight-up capitalism exacerbates those effects, and I don't think it's easy to argue that's a good thing.
sokoloff 8y ago
The primary point of the mustache calculator is to reinforce the compounding benefit of reducing expenses throughout your life. That means more savings while working and less savings needed once not working to keep the same standard of living. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...

jessaustin 8y ago

It's kind of awesome that the calculator doesn't cut off at e.g. 110.

lsh 8y ago

Speak for yourself, friend. You weren't born entitled to anything. I'm in better circumstances than you for my generation but it's unlikely I'll live to retirement age (disease). Grousing about 'capitalism' or the 'corporation' (or The Man, man) isn't going to change a single thing. I envy your clear vision of who to blame and where the problem lies but unless you get into a career in politics you're not changing anything. Easier to become an astronaut.

balt_s 8y ago
Let's see what happens in a decade.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  Indeed. I know people who deliberately don’t save for retirement because they are betting that by the time they are old, the majority of people also won’t have enough, and the government politically can’t let elderly people mass-die on the street. When the non-savers vastly outnumber the savers, the retirement problem could be solvable politically.

Sohcahtoa82 8y ago

Gonna insert my anecdata here. "no millennials" is just wrong. I'm a millennial (Though just barely, born in '82), and I fully expect to retire by 67, possibly by 65, and if markets do well, maybe even 62, and I didn't even begin saving for retirement until 3 years ago. I always question how many millennials complaining about student loan debt either didn't actually finish their degree, or they got a degree that doesn't lead to gainful employment due to lack of research before choosing a major, or they let themselves be bullshitted by some university's marketing and wayyyyy overpaid for their degree. Certainly millennials have the deck stacked against them, but with proper planning, they can be successful.

kajecounterhack 8y ago
> they got a degree that doesn't lead to gainful employment due to lack of research before choosing a major, or they let themselves be bullshitted by some university's marketing and wayyyyy overpaid for their degree. Correct. But this happens because not everyone is privileged enough to get good advice. The vast majority of 18 year olds know nothing, they've seen none of the world, and can only rely on the little knowledge they've acquired up to that point in their life. Lots of people go into college thinking "gee 100k loan, 50k loan, will be fine when I graduate and get a job." Capitalism is a system in which risk takers are rewarded / punished based on how their risky moves pan out. Unfortunately that means people with safety nets / more leeway to take risks (more wealthy) get more dice rolls and thus increase their wealth, vs if you're poor, you either stay poor, or in many cases if you look at what society's advice has been it's "go to college, a college degree means you'll make so much more money and even at the cost of $200k in debt will be worth it" <-- there's often no nuance like what field of study that gets incorporated into this common advice. It's one thing to say "capitalism is how things fall naturally." It's another to say "this is perfect and how it should work and nothing's broken, everyone gets their just desserts, capitalism is the only way, move along." I'm not saying that this is actually what you're trying to convey, but the anecdote you inserted here definitely rings of this (common) sentiment. > Certainly millennials have the deck stacked against them, but with proper planning, they can be successful. This is pretty bleak. A chance at success is true in any system. That the deck is stacked is the only salient point. I'll see your anecdote and raise you one more: talk to a few people who are the first to get college degrees in their family. I suspect you'll find that the vast majority of their parents offered no or even counter-productive advice when it comes to what field to study, or that it matters. Especially if the school they ended up at is one like Harvard/Stanford; there's some pretty good writing about what it's like to be very poor at those schools. The gap is widening between rich and poor, straight-up capitalism exacerbates those effects, and I don't think it's easy to argue that's a good thing.

sokoloff 8y ago

The primary point of the mustache calculator is to reinforce the compounding benefit of reducing expenses throughout your life. That means more savings while working and less savings needed once not working to keep the same standard of living. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...